Grace/works/Salvation - Protestant disconnect?

[thessalonian]

Grace, what is it?

Excuse my broad brushing here but I have listened to many protestant pastors with regard to what I am about to say. Most Protestants, including pastors don’t understand grace. It seems like their perception of it is that God just decides when we repent to overlook our sins. They seem to dissociate sanctification from grace as though it just kind of happens maybe with the help of the holy spirit but they seem to have a disconnect between grace and the cross as if our justification is tied to the cross, but any sanctification involving works after we become “saved” are kind of hanging out there in limbo and they don’t really seem to know how to handle them. Grace is fully admitted when they become “saved” but after that point they seem to have a hard time reconciling grace with the life of the Christian. They will say for instance that works are evidence of salvation but not the cause of it. I would rather say that works are a completion of grace, i.e. we are moved by grace to act. Our actions are Christ working in and through us (see Eph 3:20-21) and we could not do them on our own. “without him I can do nothing but in him I can do ALL THINGS! This overcomes the difficulty of the alleged dichotomy between James and Paul (along with the fact that works of the law are not the same as works of charity, i.e. Is 1). Then we can see where romans 2:4-8 comes in where we read that we are judged by our works. The good on to everlasting glory, while those who do evil on to everlasting damnation. Also in this regard it is good to reflect on the story of the sheep and the goats in Matt 25. It is the doers of the word and not just the hearers that are saved we are told elsewhere.

They also seem to have a disconnect between the cross and the application of it to our lives. Thus they continue to use the passage “It is finished” against Catholicism in an unwarranted fashion, neglecting to note that they have just as much of a problem if there is not such a thing as a life of grace in declaring the day that they were saved. It was not 2000 years ago on the cross, though that is when the grace was earned. Grace in my view is not just God being nice and forgetting about our sins. It is God working in and through the world to bring about salvation. There are many forms of grace including natural grace, sanctifying grace, actual grace.

This separation of sanctification and works and grace that I perceive allows them to continue in their denial of purgatory as well, which is primarily about sanctification. They don’t seem to understand or want to understand that God’s grace is an ongoing thing and that it can be used at the moment of death or in some time period afterward to complete the sanctification that is not guaranteed to be completed in this life, so that one might enter heaven.

Any protestants care to take a shot at what I have said?

God Bless

 

[Metaron]

Grace, what is it?

Excuse my broad brushing here but I have listened to many protestant pastors with regard to what I am about to say. Most Protestants, including pastors don’t understand grace. It seems like their perception of it is that God just decides when we repent to overlook our sins. They seem to dissociate sanctification from grace as though it just kind of happens maybe with the help of the holy spirit but they seem to have a disconnect between grace and the cross as if our justification is tied to the cross, but any sanctification involving works after we become “saved” are kind of hanging out there in limbo and they don’t really seem to know how to handle them. Grace is fully admitted when they become “saved” but after that point they seem to have a hard time reconciling grace with the life of the Christian. They will say for instance that works are evidence of salvation but not the cause of it. I would rather say that works are a completion of grace, i.e. we are moved by grace to act. Our actions are Christ working in and through us (see Eph 3:20-21) and we could not do them on our own. “without him I can do nothing but in him I can do ALL THINGS! This overcomes the difficulty of the alleged dichotomy between James and Paul (along with the fact that works of the law are not the same as works of charity, i.e. Is 1). Then we can see where romans 2:4-8 comes in where we read that we are judged by our works. The good on to everlasting glory, while those who do evil on to everlasting damnation. Also in this regard it is good to reflect on the story of the sheep and the goats in Matt 25. It is the doers of the word and not just the hearers that are saved we are told elsewhere.

They also seem to have a disconnect between the cross and the application of it to our lives. Thus they continue to use the passage “It is finished” against Catholicism in an unwarranted fashion, neglecting to note that they have just as much of a problem if there is not such a thing as a life of grace in declaring the day that they were saved. It was not 2000 years ago on the cross, though that is when the grace was earned. Grace in my view is not just God being nice and forgetting about our sins. It is God working in and through the world to bring about salvation. There are many forms of grace including natural grace, sanctifying grace, actual grace.

This separation of sanctification and works and grace that I perceive allows them to continue in their denial of purgatory as well, which is primarily about sanctification. They don’t seem to understand or want to understand that God’s grace is an ongoing thing and that it can be used at the moment of death or in some time period afterward to complete the sanctification that is not guaranteed to be completed in this life, so that one might enter heaven.

Any protestants care to take a shot at what I have said?

God Bless

Not a Protestant here, but yeah, I’ve seen what you say about them. A lot of them don’t understand Catholicism’s view of Salvation, and accuse us of works-based salvation (“getting to Heaven by our own work”) when this is a monstrous distortion of the Catholic view. Catholics believe that salvation is by grace alone, through faith proven true by works. The works are the flip-side of faith. It is typical of the Protestant dichtonomy (either/or mindset) when it is clearly taught in the Bible in the writings of St.Paul and St.James. Passive faith, merely “professing” is not enough (This is Sola Fide); Active, dynamic, faith (faith in action) is enough. But this is a little off-topic.

 

[thessalonian]

No takers? Common non-catholis. Show me that you have a rich theology of grace since you claim it is us that don’t believe in salvation by grace. You should be able to tell us what grace is and why we don’t believe we are saved by it?

 

[Metaron]

No takers? Common non-catholis. Show me that you have a rich theology of grace since you claim it is us that don’t believe in salvation by grace. You should be able to tell us what grace is and why we don’t believe we are saved by it?

Protestants? Non-Catholics? Anyone…? (crickets chirping in background)

 

[Publisher]

While many Friends do not use “evangelical” terminology, but I’ll give it a shot. I’m not comfortable with “saved” theology, but here we go.

We are saved by grace, God’s unmerrited and unlimited favor based on His astounding love for us as shown through Christ Jesus. Salvation is in His hands,not ours, through grace we respond to His call…through grace he seeks to “draw all men to himself.”

When a person is “born anew in Christ” they become a “new creature”, the work of salvation takes place in our very souls. We are cleansed and changed…we take on His nature and begin to live His life in our world “incarnationally”. We become “filled with the Holy Spirit”. We become reflections of the Divine Nature and begin, sometimes very haltingly a life rich in holiness and good works.

Salvation is not just spiritual, but temporal as well, we begin to live in the Kingdom of God on this earth…living by Kingdom standards, not earthly standards. We become His Body in this world corporately. Faith and works are linked because we are “new creatures”…the “work he has begun in us” continues if we walk in the Light as faithful followers.

We are the “firstfruits” of the New Creation…to live His Life out before the rest of the world. It all occurs because of grace, awesome, astounding grace…“behold what love the Father has bestowed upon us…”

This is a very “evangelical” wording but Friends don’t see “faith” and “works” as separate things…they are linked and cannot be divorced from one another.

 

[thessalonian]

Friends don’t let friends be Evangelical.

Thanks for your reply. I don’t think there really is much I can disagree with in it. I do see a disconnect with total depravity and your statements indicating we respond to grace by grace essentially. I.e. the laws of God are written in the hearts of men (Rom 2:14-16). This is by grace. The heavens cry out to the glory of God and all creation is shouting for joy. This is grace. I heard a scientist tell about his coming to Christianity by studing science. It was quite moving how he saw God in nature though he really had no concept of God to start with. That is God’s grace working in him, even though he was supposedly “depraved”. Again grace is not confined to Christians is a part of my point and it seems to be lacking in the evangelical world. Grace is not just God being nice. It’s his power moving all things toward him through the Holy Spirit. I think that while the unmerritted favor definition is in part true it is severely lacking and is the cause of a very difficient grace theology that leads to a very deficient salvation theology.

 

[Publisher]

Friends don’t let friends be Evangelical.

Thanks for your reply. I don’t think there really is much I can disagree with in it. I do see a disconnect with total depravity and your statements indicating we respond to grace by grace essentially. I.e. the laws of God are written in the hearts of men (Rom 2:14-16). This is by grace. The heavens cry out to the glory of God and all creation is shouting for joy. This is grace. I heard a scientist tell about his coming to Christianity by studing science. It was quite moving how he saw God in nature though he really had no concept of God to start with. That is God’s grace working in him, even though he was supposedly “depraved”. Again grace is not confined to Christians is a part of my point and it seems to be lacking in the evangelical world. Grace is not just God being nice. It’s his power moving all things toward him through the Holy Spirit. I think that while the unmerritted favor definition is in part true it is severely lacking and is the cause of a very difficient grace theology that leads to a very deficient salvation theology.

Friends don’t typically frame their understanding of human nature by “total depravity”. We’re probably closer to the Orthodox in that area…at least more moderate Friends are…Friends believe that there is “that of God” in each of us ready to Speak to our condition through the grace of God…again…worded in more “evanglelical” hues than many of us are comfortable with.

 

[SolaFide]

Most Protestants, including pastors don’t understand grace. It seems like their perception of it is that God just decides when we repent to overlook our sins.

When I read the above I actually gasped! No! That’s not what we believe. It seems you’ve heard prostestant pastors preach but have you actually LISTENED to them? If you had, I can’t imagine how you could actually come up with the idea that we believe God “overlooks” our sins.

Justification is the act of God whereby He declares the believing sinner righteous in Christ Jesus. Justification is a legal term in the Greek meaning “acquittal” We are declared not guilty. God doesn’t overlook our sins but rather because Jesus paid the FULL AND COMPLETE penalty for our sins on the cross, no further sacrifice for sins need be made. God’s justice, mercy and love are all satisfied at the cross of Calvary. No further payment needs to nor ***can be ***made to further curry God’s favor. Not here nor in any imaginary place called purgatory. Jesus did it all. And to say that we can help at all in our salvation by good works is literally tantamount to blasphemy. You have just said basically: “You know Jesus, I know you were God incarnate and all and you lived the perfect sinless life which I could never live and died a tormentous death on a cross to pay the price for my sins. But hey! I’m gonna give you my 1 cent worth of righteousness to help you out!” You might as well spit in God’s face and tell him that Jesus’ sacrifice wasn’t enough.

Our righteous acts are like filthy rags in God’s sight.

Isa 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

Why do we think that our efforts can “finish up” our salvation?

Galatians 3:1-3
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Positionally, those who have repentented and surrendered their lives to Christ depending on His finished work on the cross alone for their salvation, are declared righteous by God.

Practically, on a daily basis God is moulding and making me into the image of His dear Son. That is sancitification.

Hebrews 10:12-14
Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
Heb 10:13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering **He has perfected forever **those who are being sanctified.

That verb tense means we are already perfected in God’s sight. Not by anything we could or can do but only by that perfect sacrifice made one time (not daily or weekly in the mass) for all who will believe.

The book of James (for the thousandth time) states that: sanctification *will *happen to everyone who is truly justified by God in Christ; there will be changes in the life of every one who is truly saved.

 

[Metaron]

Solafide, your views are more Catholic than you think…

 

[bengal_fan]

sorry but i don’t think i have a disconnect. simply put, here’s how i see it:

Grace/Faith/Grace/Salvation/Works

God extends grace to know Him to all mankind
Because of that grace, we place our faith in Him
Through that faith, we received the fullness of His grace
By that grace, we are saved
Because of the grace we receive, through faith, which gives us salvation, we do works

seems pretty clear to me. the works flow from our love for Him (because He first loved us), they do not flow from a desire to gain anything.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

The book of James (for the thousandth time) states that: sanctification *will *happen to everyone who is truly justified by God in Christ; there will be changes in the life of every one who is truly saved.

James 2 mentions “SANCTIFICATION”?
Wow, could you show me that? I see the word “justification”, but not “sanctification”.

 

[thessalonian]

Sola,

I like how you blasted me for my first statement (though if justificatino is really an internal act of God on the man then why do you believe in imputed righteousness?) but then through the rest of your post you said nothing about grace relating it to sanctification. Nothing tying sanctification to the cross and to grace. Your post confirms what I said. You disscoiate our lives from the grace of the cross. You do not see Chr’st carrying the cross up calvary as related to our lives when he says “take up your cross and follow me”. That the only way we can persevere in this life is by his grace and by his cross united with ours in the assent on Calvary.

Do you not see that that act of repentence and faith is a product of grace, grace earned on the cross. So are works for God is working in and through us. Perhaps you didn’t dare read eph 3:20-21. Do open your bible. Perhaps you haven’t read Matt 25 and Romans 2:4-8 or were those passages hypothetical or written by the Jews. Works are a product of GRACE my freind. But you cannot bring yourself to say it. Do you insult the work of God in and through us? If Billy Graham preaches (a work) and 100 people are saved is that a filthy rag? A menstral clothe? How beautiful the feet of those who preach the word (a work) of God. If I pray for someone and God gives them the grace to repent and come to faith is that a filthy rag, a menstral clothe? There is great rejoicing in heaven over it. My prayers and Billy Grahams preaching are all by God’s grace. The holy spirit moves me to pray and speaks through Billy Graham. I don’t claim the success of my prayers and I don’t think Billy G. claims the success of his preaching. All is grace. The SANCTIFICATION of the soul in purgatory is grace. It’s all tied to the cross! It’s all good!

 

[thessalonian]

Oh an also, I like how you say works are just kinda a natural thing that happens when we become saved. Paul says “the good that I would do I do not, while the evil that I would not do I do”. No we still need GRACE to accomplish what God has planned for our lives. When we do the good it is God’s work, his grace. I will of course be called a pagan for giving this value.

Oh and by the way, thanks for playing.

 

[ErikaA]

Grace, what is it?

Excuse my broad brushing here but I have listened to many protestant pastors with regard to what I am about to say. Most Protestants, including pastors don’t understand grace. It seems like their perception of it is that God just decides when we repent to overlook our sins. They seem to dissociate sanctification from grace as though it just kind of happens maybe with the help of the holy spirit but they seem to have a disconnect between grace and the cross as if our justification is tied to the cross, but any sanctification involving works after we become “saved” are kind of hanging out there in limbo and they don’t really seem to know how to handle them.

I am a Protestant but I struggle with the faith/works paradox that you are talking about. In my estimation, this is the big problem in Protestantism. Let’s say I’m a prostitute who comes to a belief in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. If I am saved solely by faith and profess devotion to Christ, yet still work as a prostitute, am I really saved? A Protestant will say that if your life is characterized by sin, then you aren’t really a Christian. But if I’m saved by faith alone and we’re all sinners and all sin is the same, you can’t very well question my faith without impugning your own.

Grace is fully admitted when they become “saved” but after that point they seem to have a hard time reconciling grace with the life of the Christian. They will say for instance that works are evidence of salvation but not the cause of it.

Exactly, but what’s the difference? Either faith and works are insperable or they’re not. I heard a preacher say once that one justifies us before God and the other before men. That renders works meaningless because I could care less about justification before men. That in fact makes works undesirable IMO because by seeking justification before men, I’m chasing my own personal glory (e.g Pharisees).

I told our Pastor one time that if we all say we’re sinners but talk about other people not being Christians by virtue of them living sinful lives, what we’re really saying is that the probability of salvation is inversely proportional to the visibility of the sin. The more apparent the sin, the less chance one is saved. Although few Protestants will admit to this openly, it’s clearly implied.

I would rather say that works are a completion of grace, i.e. we are moved by grace to act. Our actions are Christ working in and through us (see Eph 3:20-21) and we could not do them on our own. “without him I can do nothing but in him I can do ALL THINGS! This overcomes the difficulty of the alleged dichotomy between James and Paul (along with the fact that works of the law are not the same as works of charity, i.e. Is 1). Then we can see where romans 2:4-8 comes in where we read that we are judged by our works. The good on to everlasting glory, while those who do evil on to everlasting damnation. Also in this regard it is good to reflect on the story of the sheep and the goats in Matt 25. It is the doers of the word and not just the hearers that are saved we are told elsewhere.

You are right - Jesus calls us to follow him. We are called to action. We are saved for good works. “Faith without works is dead” James tells us.

It was not 2000 years ago on the cross, though that is when the grace was earned. Grace in my view is not just God being nice and forgetting about our sins. It is God working in and through the world to bring about salvation. There are many forms of grace including natural grace, sanctifying grace, actual grace.

As a Protestant, I’ve never been taught about different forms of grace although it makes sense from what I understand.

This separation of sanctification and works and grace that I perceive allows them to continue in their denial of purgatory as well, which is primarily about sanctification.

I also agree that Purgatory is a logical step in the completion of our sanctification.

Oh and how about this - I can’t call Jesus Lord except by the power of the Holy Spirit but how do I receive the Spirit? Is it through baptism of water - no, in Acts it’s clear that the baptism of spirit and water are not the same. So how do I receive the Spirit - by God’s grace alone? If that is the case, then faith is no longer a matter of my choice but of God’s will. So what responsibility do I have in any of it? All help is appreciated in my dilemma here.

 

[mozart-250]

One question and I will hang up.

I know Catholics have a cow (as Bart Simpson would say) over the term “faith alone”.

Now other than the fact that it is a title and a title in itself is meaningless, my only other objection to the term would be if it is used as a cover for antinomianism (knowing that it does not necessarily have to be used that way). But that is a tangent and not my question.

If the phrase were changed to “living faith alone” would y’all still object to it? Would us Protestants?

 

[ralphinal]

Ericka,
You are getting a great grasp on things. You have a strong insight and it serves you well. The question about needed the Spirit to truely believe gets into predestination, and I do not feel that I know enough to get into it. God wills the salvation of all men. To that end, all are given the grace needed for their salvation. It is up to us on how we act upon that grace.

From what I see here in Alabama, the disconnect happens between faith and works. Catholics make up a small percentage of the population, yet we give more as a percentage than other groups. In my town, my church is no larger than the third, and it is not even close. Yet we are the main providers of food and clothing for the poor in the area and the only church helping the fire department with toys for tots. It has been that way for a while. Why? Matt 25:31-46 tells us how we are to be judged. Everyone should do more. And yet I have been told by preachers, members, deacons, et al. that it is by faith alone and not by works, so as long as I believe I am saved, even if I do nothing else. WRONG. I know not every protestant feels this way, but I think it is a natural fruit of Sola Fide

 

[East_and_West]

One question and I will hang up.

I know Catholics have a cow (as Bart Simpson would say) over the term “faith alone”.

Now other than the fact that it is a title and a title in itself is meaningless, my only other objection to the term would be if it is used as a cover for antinomianism (knowing that it does not necessarily have to be used that way). But that is a tangent and not my question.

If the phrase were changed to “living faith alone” would y’all still object to it? Would us Protestants?

I would still object because the bible states that we are justified/saved by works, repentance, faith, baptimism, love, grace, eating and drinking Christ’s body and blood, etc. The faith alone idea overly simplifies something that is not as simple as we would like.

 

[Metaron]

I would still object because the bible states that we are justified/saved by works, repentance, faith, baptimism, love, grace, eating and drinking Christ’s body and blood, etc. The faith alone idea overly simplifies something that is not as simple as we would like.

I disagree, and I’m basing my disagreement on what the Catechism says (I’m Catholic too). I think it would best be “Active Faith Proven by Works” but this is a long title. Or, you could say, “Dynamic Faith Alone” (Faith proven true by works).

 

[thessalonian]

ErikaA,

Thanks so much for your honest post.

“Is it through baptism of water - no, in Acts it’s clear that the baptism of spirit and water are not the same. So how do I receive the Spirit - by God’s grace alone? If that is the case, then faith is no longer a matter of my choice but of God’s will. So what responsibility do I have in any of it? All help is appreciated in my dilemma here.”

Perhaps you could clarify where it says that water baptism and baptis of sprit are not the same? If your thinking of Acts 19 (or is it 20) where the men say they were only baptized by John’s baptism, John’s baptism did not confer the Holy Spirit. But I think Acts 2:38-39 indicates that Water Baptism on Pentecost and thereafter does confer the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the means by which grace is brought in to us and we are cleansed. The water is merely a symbol of the internal that gives meaning to what God does in baptism. Prior to baptism we are receiving actual graces, i.e. we look at nature and it leads us to a belief in God, someone speaks to us and our intellect (formed by God) and the laws within our hearts (put there by God’s grace) all combine to lead us toward belief in God. But the grace does not become internal (sanctifying) until the moment we are baptized. (not the moment we recite a sinners prayer, albeit that is a good thing to do and our baptismal rite includes similar things). All of this is brought about by the grace of God so there is no dilema. You simply need a broader view of grace and have to recognize him in everything.

 

[East_and_West]

I disagree, and I’m basing my disagreement on what the Catechism says (I’m Catholic too). I think it would best be “Active Faith Proven by Works” but this is a long title. Or, you could say, “Dynamic Faith Alone” (Faith proven true by works).

This is an attempt to impose a foreign non-scriptural idea onto Catholicism. It ignores the sacraments that Christ pointed out as necessary for our Salvation. For example, Christ taught in Mark 16 (or is it Matthew?) “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.” He also taught that we will be raised on the last day if we eat Christ’s flesh and drink his blood (Eucharist) in John 6. Finally, the forgiveness of our sins is based on a gifted granted to the Apostles (and their successors) in John 20: “Recieve ye the Holy Spirit. Whos sin you forgive are forgiven. Whose sin you retain are retained.” (confession).; The point is that the sacraments are also necessary.