Grace?

[Merry]

Hi,

At my RCIA class this week we began our discussion of the 7 sacraments. We started with a lengthy talk about grace.

We watched an old video in which grace was defined as the love of God outside of the trinity. It was explained that everything exists because of grace, or God’s love. And that it is impossible to be without grace, because then you simply wouldn’t exist.

We also talked about the old catechism definition of sacraments as instituted by God to confer grace. We talked about this being an unsatisfactory definition because it doesn’t really explain anything, at least not so I could understand it.

The video talked about the sacraments being necessary as points where we focus on the sacred that is always around us, and that there are other times/places/things that can be sacramental to individuals.

But the more I think about it, the more confused I am. First, people keep talking (here on CAF) about things “giving grace” - but we were specifically told grace isn’t quantifiable like that, and that everyone already has it. But if the sacraments don’t give us grace, why are they so important? And why does the traditional definition say that they DO give grace?

Any help?

Thanks!

 

[michaeldaniels]

Where are you in RCIA at? Sounds like they need to be properly Catechized themselves before instructing others.

First, there are two types of grace: Actual Grace and Sanctifying Grace

Actual Grace: “Actual grace is given to us each time we need God’s intervention to accomplish a particular act and is “used up” when the act is completed. The life of actual grace is a continuous movement toward a definite goal of knowing God better and living our lives to reflect it. Living our lives in obedience to God requires His unending help. This help is how the Father draws us closer to His Son and how we are enabled to live Christian lives. The way we can obtain this type of grace is by prayer. It stimulates us to do things pleasing to God. This is what causes our souls to listen and learn what the Father wants us to do. It also causes interior decisions and exterior actions in leading our daily lives. Paul defines it in 1Cor. 15:9-12, “Only by God’s grace I am what I am, and the grace He has shown me has not been without fruit; I have worked harder than all of them, or rather it was not I, but the grace of God working in me.””

Sanctifying Grace: "The second type, sanctifying grace, is the greatest type of grace because it joins us intimately with God. It is the divine life of Christ who permanently dwells within us. Sanctifying grace is infused by the Holy Spirit and exists in our soul so we may be in the state of holiness. This grace is what sanctifies us and allows an internal change to become sincere children of God. This grace will remain within us indefinitely as long as we remain faithful to God. The only way to lose this type of grace is to commit a serious or mortal sin. 1John tells us that there is a type of sin (mortal) that is deadly. The consequence of losing this type of grace is serious because it jeopardizes our promise of heaven. Sanctifying grace is obtained from all seven sacraments. A sacrament is an external sign that has the power to produce grace within a person’s soul because it is Christ who instituted them and is the one administrating the grace. Baptism restores our intimate relationship lost by Adam due to Original Sin and Reconciliation restores a person to sanctifying grace when it has been lost by mortal sin. All of the other sacraments intensify the existing grace in our soul. It says in Ephesians 2:5-8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.” Actual grace that works on the soul and sanctifying grace that works in the soul are free gifts from God. All we have to do to receive them is to ask for them in prayer or to receive the sacraments.

Regarding the Baltimore Catechism, which I assume is the one they said is inadequate, they are completely wrong…The Baltimore Catechism is a great Catechism. Also, you can lose your sanctifying grace by committing Mortal Sin…so no, not everyone has it. Now what everyone has within them and can not live without is The Holy Spirit

If I were you, I would possibly check into going to RCIA at another Parish, where the people actually know, understand, and teach Catholic Doctrine, Tradition, and beliefs. Good Luck

Hi,

At my RCIA class this week we began our discussion of the 7 sacraments. We started with a lengthy talk about grace.

We watched an old video in which grace was defined as the love of God outside of the trinity. It was explained that everything exists because of grace, or God’s love. And that it is impossible to be without grace, because then you simply wouldn’t exist.

We also talked about the old catechism definition of sacraments as instituted by God to confer grace. We talked about this being an unsatisfactory definition because it doesn’t really explain anything, at least not so I could understand it.

The video talked about the sacraments being necessary as points where we focus on the sacred that is always around us, and that there are other times/places/things that can be sacramental to individuals.

But the more I think about it, the more confused I am. First, people keep talking (here on CAF) about things “giving grace” - but we were specifically told grace isn’t quantifiable like that, and that everyone already has it. But if the sacraments don’t give us grace, why are they so important? And why does the traditional definition say that they DO give grace?

Any help?

Thanks!

 

[jpjd]

We also talked about the old catechism definition of sacraments as instituted by God to confer grace.

You left out an important part of the definition. A sacrament is an outward sign, instituted by Christ, to give grace. The outward sign is the “sense-perceptible” sign, the thing the priest says (i.e., "I baptize you in the name of the Father…etc,) and the thing the priest does (i.e., pours water three times).

The sign makes happen an action of Christ. The action of Christ is the washing away of original sin (among other things) in the sacrament of baptism, the forgiveness of personal sins in the sacrament of confession, etc. This action brings grace to us. If grace was lost (due to mortal sin), it is restored in confession. If grace is already present, receiving a sacrament strengthens grace.

Sacraments most definitely DO give grace. That’s why they are so important.

Grace is a big topic, definitely a mystery (beyond our abilitly to fully comprehend), but well worth the effort to try to understand. Be sure to ask your very good questions at RCIA and allow them to help you clarify your understanding.

Blessings.

 

[Merry]

Where are you in RCIA at? Sounds like they need to be properly Catechized themselves before instructing others.
…

If I were you, I would possibly check into going to RCIA at another Parish, where the people actually know, understand, and teach Catholic Doctrine, Tradition, and beliefs. Good Luck

In truth, I have always sort of known that my RCIA is a little lacking. But what do I do about it? My local church didn’t have an RCIA program, and offered me NO help when I called them in September and told them I wanted to become a Catholic!

So I looked around and found a church offering RCIA. My non-Catholic husband is happy to come to this new church with me. My little boys LOVE the Sunday school program. It is working for us in so many ways. I KNOW that the RCIA is lacking, but I am longing to be baptized, and I want to have my children baptized.

I can search, but I’m not really sure that there is anything better available. How would I find it? How can you tell in advance? Also, I don’t want to have to start at the beginning again and wait another year!

I know this is now totally off topic for this circle. Sorry.

 

[Carlan]

Where are you in RICA at? Sounds like they need to be properly Catechized themselves before instructing others.

First, there are two types of grace: Actual Grace and Sanctifying Grace

Actual Grace: “Actual grace is given to us each time we need God’s intervention to accomplish a particular act and is “used up” when the act is completed. The life of actual grace is a continuous movement toward a definite goal of knowing God better and living our lives to reflect it. Living our lives in obedience to God requires His unending help. This help is how the Father draws us closer to His Son and how we are enabled to live Christian lives. The way we can obtain this type of grace is by prayer. It stimulates us to do things pleasing to God. This is what causes our souls to listen and learn what the Father wants us to do. It also causes interior decisions and exterior actions in leading our daily lives. Paul defines it in CO. 15:9-12, “Only by God’s grace I am what I am, and the grace He has shown me has not been without fruit; I have worked harder than all of them, or rather it was not I, but the grace of God working in me.””

Sanctifying Grace: "The second type, sanctifying grace, is the greatest type of grace because it joins us intimately with God. It is the divine life of Christ who permanently dwells within us. Sanctifying grace is infused by the Holy Spirit and exists in our soul so we may be in the state of holiness. This grace is what sanctifies us and allows an internal change to become sincere children of God. This grace will remain within us indefinitely as long as we remain faithful to God. The only way to lose this type of grace is to commit a serious or mortal sin. John tells us that there is a type of sin (mortal) that is deadly. The consequence of losing this type of grace is serious because it jeopardizes our promise of heaven. Sanctifying grace is obtained from all seven sacraments. A sacrament is an external sign that has the power to produce grace within a person’s soul because it is Christ who instituted them and is the one administrating the grace. Baptism restores our intimate relationship lost by Adam due to Original Sin and Reconciliation restores a person to sanctifying grace when it has been lost by mortal sin. All of the other sacraments intensify the existing grace in our soul. It says in Ephesians 2:5-8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.” Actual grace that works on the soul and sanctifying grace that works in the soul are free gifts from God. All we have to do to receive them is to ask for them in prayer or to receive the sacraments.

Regarding the Baltimore Catechism, which I assume is the one they said is inadequate, they are completely wrong…The Baltimore Catechism is a great Catechism. Also, you can lose your sanctifying grace by committing Mortal Sin…so no, not everyone has it. Now what everyone has within them and can not live without is The Holy Spirit

If I were you, I would possibly check into going to RICA at another Parish, where the people actually know, understand, and teach Catholic Doctrine, Tradition, and beliefs. Good Luck

Excellent post Michael!
May I just add that actual grace is what God uses to draw us to him, It is available to every one. However, we must willingly reach out and grab it at God’s prompting. If we pull back God will not give up on us, but like the “Hound of Heaven” in Francis Thompson’s poem he will stay after us. God bless you in your discernment.Carlan

 

[michaeldaniels]

YEah…I can certainly sympathize with your situation…and it is sad that you are forced to have to endure such things…it is deplorable that there are Catholic Churches that don’t even offer RCIA…how else are those seeking The Catholic Church supposed to join??? Very, very, sad, but you are on the right path…hang in there you recognize there are deficiencies in the program you attend (heck, I am sure they are all deficient in some way), but as long as you seek the truth and research and study the faith on your own outside of RCIA, you will be fine…you can always come here as you did, with any questions you may have. There are some wonderful and knowledgeable Catholics on here that would love to aid you on your way Home to The Catholic Church. I for one will be praying for you.

In truth, I have always sort of known that my RCIA is a little lacking. But what do I do about it? My local church didn’t have an RCIA program, and offered me NO help when I called them in September and told them I wanted to become a Catholic!

So I looked around and found a church offering RCIA. My non-Catholic husband is happy to come to this new church with me. My little boys LOVE the Sunday school program. It is working for us in so many ways. I KNOW that the RCIA is lacking, but I am longing to be baptized, and I want to have my children baptized.

I can search, but I’m not really sure that there is anything better available. How would I find it? How can you tell in advance? Also, I don’t want to have to start at the beginning again and wait another year!

I know this is now totally off topic for this circle. Sorry.

 

[michaeldaniels]

God Bless you!!! and Thank you for your kind words

God bless you in your discernment.Carlan

 

[StillWondering]

In truth, I have always sort of known that my RCIA is a little lacking. But what do I do about it? My local church didn’t have an RCIA program, and offered me NO help when I called them in September and told them I wanted to become a Catholic!

So I looked around and found a church offering RCIA. My non-Catholic husband is happy to come to this new church with me. My little boys LOVE the Sunday school program. It is working for us in so many ways. I KNOW that the RCIA is lacking, but I am longing to be baptized, and I want to have my children baptized.

I can search, but I’m not really sure that there is anything better available. How would I find it? How can you tell in advance? Also, I don’t want to have to start at the beginning again and wait another year!

I know this is now totally off topic for this circle. Sorry.

I really feel for you. The parish I am in is really great and they have a wonderful RCIA. However, it is in San Francisco and there is still some influences that should not be there. I do not have a clear answer for your frustration, but I do have an idea. I often listen to EWTN and read Catholic Answer tracks to ground myself. In addition there are many ways we can get Vatican documents, such as vatican.va to supplement and correct what is being taught to us. The important thing here I believe is that you continue your RCIA as best as possible and enter the Church fully. Whether the instructors are orthodox, as long as the Sacraments are done properly and with proper intention, you are are assured that Christ is doing the Sacraments and your good to go. You can even bring documents to the instructors or pastor in private to help them out if not this year then after you are baptized =). I tried a bit but remember to do a little at a time and be patient. Some prayers and not necessary make enemies but be a “beacon of light to the world”. Remember Jesus’s words, who lights a lamp and puts it under a wicker basket. So go and get your lamp lit and welcome to the Church!

I often promote free audio programs from EWTN since they are great, it’s free, and I am a poor reader =). Check this bible study out. It talks about salvation and hits many of the core orthodox teachings of the Church.

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-306548622&T1=scott+hahn

 

[stuart12]

The good thing is that you realised something was lacking and came on here to have your concerns addressed. Yet, the vast majority of catechumens suffer greatly from poor teaching in the R.C.I.A. programme and don’t know it.

The bishops need to exercise their authority a lot more on this crucial topic and oversee the ‘education’ that goes on within their jurisdiction.

May our Lord Christ and His Holy Mother be with you on your journey.

 

[jpjd]

But the more I think about it, the more confused I am. First, people keep talking (here on CAF) about things “giving grace” - but we were specifically told grace isn’t quantifiable like that, and that everyone already has it. But if the sacraments don’t give us grace, why are they so important? And why does the traditional definition say that they DO give grace?

To go back to the OP…

I found an article that does a nice job explaining the sacraments and grace. Here is an excerpt:

"
**Sacraments: a definition **
The sacraments are chosen instruments of divine power.

The exact definition of a sacrament is that it is “an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.” We readily can see that there are three distinct ideas contained in that short definition:

• Outward sign
• Instituted by Christ
• To give grace

Let’s examine exactly what each of these three ideas means:

**Outward signs… **
The outward signs are God’s way of treating us like the human beings we are. He conveys His unseen grace into our spiritual souls through material symbols which our physical bodies can perceive—things and words and gestures.
The outward signs of the sacraments have two parts: the “thing” itself which is used (water, oil, etc.), and the words or gestures which give significance to what is being done.

**…Instituted by Christ… **
We know that no human power could attach an inward grace to an outward sign—not even the divinely guided but humanly applied power of the Church.
Only God can do that.
Which brings us to the second element in the definition of a sacrament: “instituted by Christ.”
Between the time He began His public life and the time He ascended into heaven, Jesus fashioned the seven sacraments. When He ascended into heaven, that put an end to the making of sacraments.
The Church cannot institute new sacraments. There never can be more or less than seven, the seven Jesus has given us: Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Reconciliation (Confession or Penance), Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.
Jesus did completely specify the matter and form of some of the sacraments—notably Baptism and the Holy Eucharist. But this does not mean that He necessarily fixed the matter and form of all the sacraments down to the last detail.
Concerning some of the sacraments (Confirmation, for example) He probably left it to His Church, the keeper and the giver of His sacraments, to specify in detail the broad matter and form assigned by Christ.

**…To give grace **
Coming now to the third element in the definition of a sacrament, we have its essential purpose: “to give grace.”
What kind of grace do the sacraments give?

First and most important of all, they give sanctifying grace. Sanctifying grace is that marvelous supernatural life, that sharing-in-God’s-own-life that is the result of God’s Love, the Holy Spirit, indwelling in the soul.

• To the soul cut off from God by original sin, Baptism brings sanctifying grace for the first time. Baptism opens the soul to the flow of God’s love, and establishes union between the soul and God.
• To the soul cut off from God by its own sin, by mortal sin, the sacrament of Reconciliation restores the sanctifying grace that has been lost. Reconciliation removes the barrier that has kept the Holy Spirit outside and once again gives entrance to God’s life-giving love.

The other five sacraments—Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony—give an increase in sanctifying grace.
They deepen and intensify the spiritual life of sanctifying grace which already pulsates through the soul. As each additional sacrament is received (and repeated, when it can be) the level of spiritual vitality rises in the soul—somewhat as the brightness of a fire increases as you add more fuel. (God’s love does not increase—it is infinite to begin with. But the soul’s capacity to absorb His love increases as a child’s capacity for life increases with each meal that he eats.) "

(from beginningcatholic.com/sacraments.html

 

[thomas_jd]

Hi,

At my RCIA class this week we began our discussion of the 7 sacraments. We started with a lengthy talk about grace.

We watched an old video in which grace was defined as the love of God outside of the trinity. It was explained that everything exists because of grace, or God’s love. And that it is impossible to be without grace, because then you simply wouldn’t exist.

We also talked about the old catechism definition of sacraments as instituted by God to confer grace. We talked about this being an unsatisfactory definition because it doesn’t really explain anything, at least not so I could understand it.

The video talked about the sacraments being necessary as points where we focus on the sacred that is always around us, and that there are other times/places/things that can be sacramental to individuals.

But the more I think about it, the more confused I am. First, people keep talking (here on CAF) about things “giving grace” - but we were specifically told grace isn’t quantifiable like that, and that everyone already has it. But if the sacraments don’t give us grace, why are they so important? And why does the traditional definition say that they DO give grace?

Any help?

Thanks!

I know of no better way of getting acquainted with the sacraments than thru the old stand-by “The Baltimore Catechism.” Start off with that and gradually learn from the Cathecism of the Catholic Church. They will give you a good perspective and solid base of our faith.
Continue to learn at rcia. Remember these teachers are not usually trained properly and errors will be made.Write down any problems, they can all be answered in time. Most of all Perseverance is needed. One step at a time.