Grace

[Giacomo222]

Yesterday, I was reminded on this forum that we are saved by the Grace of God…not by our own good merits or works.

I need all of your opinions on something related to this topic. It seems like the average Catholic THINKS that a person can save him/herself through his/her own merits. I don’t believe that enough Catholics are aware that Only God’s grace can save us. Do you guys agree??

Edited by moderator

 

[PerfectTiming]

We are not saved by works nor are we saved by faith. Faith without works is insufficient, as are works without faith. It’s like building a house. You need to build the foundations before you can start the walls. Just as the foundations alone are useless because there is nothing built upon them. The foundation is faith, the walls are works.

The ‘faith alone’ types differ on the crucial point as to whether faith and works are mutually inclusive. A Baptist acquaintance of mine insists that those with faith automatically then do good works. But if this is true, how come they sin? If that is true then all their works would be good and they would not sin. Furthermore, the Bible tells us that even demons believe. When Christ encounters a man possessed the spirit tells him “I know who you are: the Holy One of God.” (Mark 1:24). They know who He is yet it does nothing for them. It is plainly obvious that faith and works are not automatically inclusive.

“You believe in the one God – that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar? So you can see that his faith was working together with his deeds; his faith became perfect by what he did.” James 2:19-22

I think this verse describes it perfectly. Faith together with deeds - each alone is useless but together they are perfect. The ‘Evangelicals’ are you describe them are wrong. Only the True Church fully holds His Truth.

 

[Giacomo222]

OK Emily what you say is true…both faith and works are needed. However, if God’s grace isn’t working in you then there will be neither. Many Catholics do not understand that salvation is a free gift that can not be earned. Too many of us do not understand that salvation comes through grace…not through our own merits and that Jesus died on the cross because we are not good enough on our own to get to heaven.

I believe that the Church does a poor job of teaching this and most sermons focus on works rather than grace and man’s inability to save himself. SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE TO TEACH THE LAITY THE TRUTH!!

 

[PerfectTiming]

OK Emily but the point I am trying to make here is that Many Catholics do not understand that salvation is a free gift that can not be earned. Too many of us do not understand that salvation comes through grace…not through our own merits and that Jesus died on the cross because we are not good enough on our own to get to heaven.

I believe that the Church does a poor job of teaching this and most sermons focus on works rather than grace and man’s inability to save himself. SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE TO TEACH THE LAITY THE TRUTH!!

I’ve never personally known any Catholic to believe salvation can be earned. I’ve only ever heard that from anti-Catholics. But I digress.

I think part of the problem is that it is easy to assume that people realise that faith is necessary. Telling a congregation they need faith is, as the saying goes, ‘preaching to the choir’. The presumption is that people have faith and know they need faith. But it’s easy for people to forget the importance of works, hence the focus on works.

I understand what you were trying to say but you were straying into the Protestant ‘sola fide’. I am sure that wasn’t your intention but I was just trying to stress the importance of both faith and works together. It’s easy if you focus on one to forget the other.

 

[Giacomo222]

I’ve never personally known any Catholic to believe salvation can be earned. I’ve only ever heard that from anti-Catholics. But I digress.

I respectfuly disagree with that statement. People like you and I who take the time to study the faith and really get to know it are the minority. I bet you that over half of all Catholics in the world would not be able to fill in the blanks of the statement below with the proper answers if they were asked to:

We are saved by the _________ of ____________ through _________ and __________

Now, I bet that most people on this forum can fill in the blanks but I don’t think that your average Catholic could.

 

[Garyjohn2]

Salvation cannot be earned, but it can be rejected. We can reject the grace of God, cut ourselves off from it, by our actions. That is what is mean when it is said that works matter! We are participants in this. It’s not just faith or free grace, though those are very important…essential actually.

Also, it is only the grace of God that allows us to do good works at all. So still His grace is present in those doing good works, even those trying to get by on good works alone. Good works and grace are not exclusive things is what I’m trying to say here. Also, we can reject the grace of God with our works…so it’s important to pay attention to those.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I respectfuly disagree with that statement. People like you and I who take the time to study the faith and really get to know it are the minority. I bet you that over half of all Catholics in the world would not be able to fill in the blanks of the statement below with the proper answers if they were asked to:

We are saved by the _________ of ____________ through _________ and __________

Now, I bet that most people on this forum can fill in the blanks but I don’t think that your average Catholic could.

Suggested reading: Luke 18:9-14

 

[Giacomo222]

Suggested reading: Luke 18:9-14

You miss the point Jim Dandy. I’m not trying to put anybody down or talk about my own greateness here. I’m simply saying that Catholics are not being told the truth by the clergy. They don’t explain the basics of the faith very well so many Catholics don’t understand the basics of the faith. Sometimes the truth hurts.

 

[PerfectTiming]

You miss the point Jim Dandy. I’m not trying to put anybody down or talk about my own greateness here. I’m simply saying that Catholics are not being told the truth by the clergy. They don’t explain the basics of the faith very well so many Catholics don’t understand the basics of the faith. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Perhaps you are limited by your own experience. The various parishes I have attended have been excellent at teaching the faith. I have never been to a parish where the priest has mislead anyone about anything. But again that is just my experience. You can’t judge the entire Catholic population because you can’t possibly know that information.

 

[Giacomo222]

Perhaps you are limited by your own experience. The various parishes I have attended have been excellent at teaching the faith. I have never been to a parish where the priest has mislead anyone about anything. But again that is just my experience. You can’t judge the entire Catholic population because you can’t possibly know that information.

Ask most Catholics how you get to heaven and they will give you a laundry list of things you have to do such as go to mass, pray, do this, do that, etc. Most people will not even mention the idea of God’s grace being the motivating factor behind it all. I know because I used to be one of them myself. The sad thing is that even though the CCC teaches salvation by Grace, the priests don’t preach it from the pulpit. The point of starting this threadis not to talk about how great I am but rather to make people aware of this problem so something can be done to fix it.

 

[JRKH]

Yesterday, I was reminded on this forum that we are saved by the Grace of God…not by our own good merits or works.

I need all of your opinions on something related to this topic. It seems like the average Catholic THINKS that a person can save him/herself through his/her own merits. I don’t believe that enough Catholics are aware that Only God’s grace can save us. Do you guys agree??

It seems that our Evangelical Brothers and sisters are more aware that we are saved by Grace not by works. Perhaps the clergy needs to do a better job of making this clear during sermons and perhaps our CCD programs need to do a better job of teaching this as well. What do you all think?

First I’d like to take a look at your assertion above because it reminds me of how newspapers will word things when they want to project a certain view without the facts to back it up.
You say, “It seems like the average Catholic THINKS that a person can save him/herself through his/her own merits. I don’t believe that enough Catholics are aware that Only God’s grace can save us.”

From this certain questions arise. First, what constitutes an “average Catholic”? What is the criteria used to define what is “Average”?
Second, does what something, “seems like”, constitute a legitimate basis upon which to make deductions?
So in the end we have “what you believe” to be true about an undefined group called “average”.
Yet based on this you seek our opinions and discussion about something that only “seems” to exist.

I don’t say the above to be nasty or to put you down. I do agree that there are issues with catechesis among the faithful that can and does lead to just this kind of thinking in certain individuals. I have no idea the number or if it constitutes something “average”.

As in all things there needs to be a balance of understanding between God’s free gifts to us and our necessary response to the gifts.
If one runs across a person who believes as the OP suggests, then we need to gently remind them of the absolute necessity of God’s grace in their lives and that our salvation is not dependent upon some ledger sheet of good deeds but rather on our Love for God and our fellow man. Something that we must seek daily to live out.

Peace
James

 

[Giacomo222]

First I’d like to take a look at your assertion above because it reminds me of how newspapers will word things when they want to project a certain view without the facts to back it up.
You say, “It seems like the average Catholic THINKS that a person can save him/herself through his/her own merits. I don’t believe that enough Catholics are aware that Only God’s grace can save us.”

From this certain questions arise. First, what constitutes an “average Catholic”? What is the criteria used to define what is “Average”?
Second, does what something, “seems like”, constitute a legitimate basis upon which to make deductions?
So in the end we have “what you believe” to be true about an undefined group called “average”.
Yet based on this you seek our opinions and discussion about something that only “seems” to exist.

I don’t say the above to be nasty or to put you down. I do agree that there are issues with catechesis among the faithful that can and does lead to just this kind of thinking in certain individuals. I have no idea the number or if it constitutes something “average”.

As in all things there needs to be a balance of understanding between God’s free gifts to us and our necessary response to the gifts.
If one runs across a person who believes as the OP suggests, then we need to gently remind them of the absolute necessity of God’s grace in their lives and that our salvation is not dependent upon some ledger sheet of good deeds but rather on our Love for God and our fellow man. Something that we must seek daily to live out.

Peace
James

Oh brother now you sound like some overpaid lawyer trying to get a murderer who he KNOWS is guilty off the hook. The truth is the truth plain and simple…most Catholics don’t have a clue about how salvation works and the sad part is that it’s NOT THEIR FAULT…IT’S THE FAULT OF THE PRIESTS!!

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Yesterday, I was reminded on this forum that we are saved by the Grace of God…not by our own good merits or works.

I need all of your opinions on something related to this topic. It seems like the average Catholic THINKS that a person can save him/herself through his/her own merits. I don’t believe that enough Catholics are aware that Only God’s grace can save us. Do you guys agree??

It seems that our Evangelical Brothers and sisters are more aware that we are saved by Grace not by works. Perhaps the clergy needs to do a better job of making this clear during sermons and perhaps our CCD programs need to do a better job of teaching this as well. What do you all think?

“See that you are saved by works and not by Faith alone”

 

[JRKH]

You miss the point Jim Dandy. I’m not trying to put anybody down or talk about my own greateness here. I’m simply saying that Catholics are not being told the truth by the clergy. They don’t explain the basics of the faith very well so many Catholics don’t understand the basics of the faith. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Perhaps God is calling you to this ministry.
Maybe you should contact your pastor and brainstorm some ways to help teach.

You could set up bible studies and the Catechism that tie the two together.
You could become involved with the RCIA program
Perhaps a youth ministry and events would help to spread the good word.

Peace
James

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Oh brother now you sound like some overpaid lawyer trying to get a murderer who he KNOWS is guilty off the hook. The truth is the truth plain and simple…most Catholics don’t have a clue about how salvation works and the sad part is that it’s NOT THEIR FAULT…IT’S THE FAULT OF THE PRIESTS!!

You can’t blame Priests for everything. People should be curious enough to look into these things themselves. Yes, Priests should explain things more, and motivate people to look into the Faith, and there are many great Priests that do, but you can’t blame it on the Priests alone. It is the fault of the people as well.

 

[Giacomo222]

Perhaps God is calling you to this ministry.
Maybe you should contact your pastor and brainstorm some ways to help teach.

You could set up bible studies and the Catechism that tie the two together.
You could become involved with the RCIA program
Perhaps a youth ministry and events would help to spread the good word.

Peace
James

I have signed up to teach CCD at my parish.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

I respectfuly disagree with that statement. People like you and I who take the time to study the faith and really get to know it are the minority. I bet you that over half of all Catholics in the world would not be able to fill in the blanks of the statement below with the proper answers if they were asked to:

We are saved by the _________ of ____________ through _________ and __________

Now, I bet that most people on this forum can fill in the blanks but I don’t think that your average Catholic could.

Yes, that statement is true. As Father Corapi once said (When “Father” was still a part of of his name, that is): “Only twenty-five percent of Catholics go to church. And in my experience, only ten percent of that really knows their faith”.

 

[JRKH]

Oh brother now you sound like some overpaid lawyer trying to get a murderer who he KNOWS is guilty off the hook. The truth is the truth plain and simple…most Catholics don’t have a clue about how salvation works and the sad part is that it’s NOT THEIR FAULT…IT’S THE FAULT OF THE PRIESTS!!

Thanks for the compliment but the fact is, I have a high school education plus a 2 year degree in Mechanical design. So I am far from being a lawyer - overpaid or not.

Now that you have made the assertion that, “most Catholics don’t have a clue about how salvation works”, we have the right to ask you to produce something more than your opinion. Documentation please that proves your (so far) unsubstantiated judgement of your fellow Catholics of which I am one.

Peace
James

 

[Giacomo222]

You can’t blame Priests for everything. People should be curious enough to look into these things themselves. Yes, Priests should explain things more, and motivate people to look into the Faith, and there are many great Priests that do, but you can’t blame it on the Priests alone. It is the fault of the people as well.

Well, I can agree with you but the problem I have with the priests I know is that they will never listen to a layman who has a complaint like mine.

 

[JRKH]

I have signed up to teach CCD at my parish.

GREAT…

Peace
James