Grace

[Giacomo222]

Thanks for the compliment but the fact is, I have a high school education plus a 2 year degree in Mechanical design. So I am far from being a lawyer - overpaid or not.

Now that you have made the assertion that, “most Catholics don’t have a clue about how salvation works”, we have the right to ask you to produce something more than your opinion. Documentation please that proves your (so far) unsubstantiated judgement of your fellow Catholics of which I am one.

Peace
James

Perhaps I should look up the phone numbers of 100 random parishoners at my home parish who attend mass regularly. I bet that more than half of them won’t have a clue about how salvation works and they won’t have a clue as to why we even have a Eucharist. Would that serve as documentation?

 

[JRKH]

Well, I can agree with you but the problem I have with the priests I know is that they will never listen to a layman who has a complaint like mine.

This may be true and certainly can lead to frustration, but one should be careful not to extrapolate problems with individuals onto an entire group which compasses the planet.

This very thing is what some protestants do when they reject the catholic Church based on the sinful actions of individuals whether historical figures or current examples.
The Priests you know may not see the same problem you do, but those are individual priests.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Perhaps I should look up the phone numbers of 100 random parishoners at my home parish who attend mass regularly. I bet that more than half of them won’t have a clue about how salvation works and they won’t have a clue as to why we even have a Eucharist. Would that serve as documentation?

It would be a start. Of course such a study would only be valid within the pool of potential participants…That being your home parish and such a limited sampling could hardly be extrapolated to represent the average Catholic worldwide.
The numbers could easily vary from parish to parish, region to region and country to country.

My point in all of this is not to belittle your concerns (which I largely agree with) but rather to try to get you to recognize that making such sweeping accusations as you have, without having the documentation to back it up only serves to undermine your credibility.
Far better to recognize that there is a problem, but also to recognize that the problem can be as varied in form and severity as there are Catholics in the pews.

Yes Catechesis has been terrible. Yes many Catholics have wrong, or vague, notions in important areas of the faith. But there are also many good people out there who, whether they can express it or not, DO rely on God, DO recognize their unworthiness and DO rely on God’s grace.
The problem is real, but it is not a black or white problem. Catholics range from highly spiritual to highly rational. From highly knowledgeable to simple and practical disciples. Recognizing this variation within the group helps us to recognize our own faults and strengths so that we can best help others to grow in holiness.

I’m Glad that you will be teaching CCD. I hope that this will be a fulfilling ministry for you and for those you teach.

Peace
James

 

[Giacomo222]

It would be a start. Of course such a study would only be valid within the pool of potential participants…That being your home parish and such a limited sampling could hardly be extrapolated to represent the average Catholic worldwide.
The numbers could easily vary from parish to parish, region to region and country to country.

My point in all of this is not to belittle your concerns (which I largely agree with) but rather to try to get you to recognize that making such sweeping accusations as you have, without having the documentation to back it up only serves to undermine your credibility.
Far better to recognize that there is a problem, but also to recognize that the problem can be as varied in form and severity as there are Catholics in the pews.

Yes Catechesis has been terrible. Yes many Catholics have wrong, or vague, notions in important areas of the faith. But there are also many good people out there who, whether they can express it or not, DO rely on God, DO recognize their unworthiness and DO rely on God’s grace.
The problem is real, but it is not a black or white problem. Catholics range from highly spiritual to highly rational. From highly knowledgeable to simple and practical disciples. Recognizing this variation within the group helps us to recognize our own faults and strengths so that we can best help others to grow in holiness.

I’m Glad that you will be teaching CCD. I hope that this will be a fulfilling ministry for you and for those you teach.

Peace
James

 

[Jim_Dandy]

You miss the point Jim Dandy. I’m not trying to put anybody down

Nobody except every priest of the Catholic Church, since you state that they all fail in their duty to teach the Faith.

or talk about my own greateness here.

Except the greatness of your own knowledge compared to the “average Catholic” – and most of us are “average.” Average means intermediate, neither the highest nor the lowest on a scale. Few of us are either abject failures or exceptional, but somewhere in between.

I’m simply saying that Catholics are not being told the truth by the clergy. They don’t explain the basics of the faith very well so many Catholics don’t understand the basics of the faith. :

If “Catholics” (that’s all of us in the world) are “not being told the truth,” that means we’re all being lied to by “the clergy.” One form of lying is withholding the truth, which is your charge against “the clergy.” “The clergy” means that all priests, deacons, bishops, archbishops, cardinals, and the pope) – and you say “they don’t tell the truth” – They “don’t explain the basics of the faith very well”

Sometimes the truth hurts.

It pains me to see a Catholic unfairly maligning the entire clergy of the Catholic Church in a public forum.

The teaching of the Catholic Church is readily available to anyone who wishes to learn – in books, CD’s, DVDs, the Catechism, classes, on the Internet, through EWTN-TV, Catholic Radio, through apologetics organizations like Catholic Answers, the Catholics Come Home program, or through personal appointment with a priest. Know-nothing Catholics are responsible for their own lack of knowledge.

Are you not familiar with that old adage about leading a horse to water?

You haven’t said where and when you believe this “failure to teach” or “dereliction of duty” by “the Catholic clergy” takes place. As you have stated, it’s everywhere, all the time, in every media.

As a former Protestant, I can say that by making such an unfounded charge, you are giving ammunition to the enemies of the Church.

You offer no evidence to substantiate your claim that the “clergy does not teach the truth.” The evidence is to the contrary. What you have stated is merely your own personal opinion. And it’s very hurtful toward those who give their lives in service to the Church, IMO.

Jim Dandy

 

[Giacomo222]

You offer no evidence to substantiate your claim that the “clergy does not teach the truth.” The evidence is to the contrary. What you have stated is merely your own personal opinion. And it’s very hurtful toward those who give their lives in service to the Church, IMO.

Jim Dandy

No, actually what I am saying will only help the church. The fact is most Catholics don’t know how salvation works I would bet my bank account on it. Somebody has to stand up for what is right and inform the laity of the truth. Jesus told us that we are to stand up for what is right. I am prepared to take any insult that may come my way as a result of my words on this topic.

 

[Giacomo222]

Except the greatness of your own knowledge compared to the “average Catholic” – and most of us are “average”

No, sadly my knowledge of Catholic Theology used to be so poor that a protestant teenager was the one who had to teach me about the fact that salvation only comes from God’s grace. That is why I feel so strongly about this topic. I went to Catholic School for nine years, took three more years of CCD, and thought seriously about becoming a priest. I was recognized at my graduation with a gold cord as being the top student for religion in my class. Despite all of this, I didn’t even know that I couldn’t save myself and that salvation comes from God’s grace alone??? Something is wrong with this picture. I was lied to by the clergy and it made me angry!

 

[JRKH]

No, actually what I am saying will only help the church. The fact is most Catholics don’t know how salvation works I would bet my bank account on it.

Is it more important that one know “how” salvation works or is it more important that one know that salvation works and then proceeds to act on the grace received through their salvation?
I can tell you truly that I don’t know “how” salvation works. I only know that I have been saved, I am being saved, and I hope to be saved at my earthly death. Knowing this I act on my salvation in Love, through Love, and by extending God’s Love to others. Am I trying to “earn” salvation? Nope. I am merely acting on my faith.

Various Scholars of various times and denomination and outlook have studied the “hows” of salvation and not all have come up with the same conclusions. So when one asks “how does salvation work” you might get different answers depending on who you talk to, how they were taught, what their native speaking ability is etc.
Even if you were to do a “survey” the results will only be as accurate as the specific questions asked and the understandings of those questions by the reader.

Somebody has to stand up for what is right and inform the laity of the truth. Jesus told us that we are to stand up for what is right. I am prepared to take any insult that may come my way as a result of my words on this topic.

Well you go guy. Teaching CCD will give you a great way to help improve catechesis in the next generation.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

No, sadly my knowledge of Catholic Theology used to be so poor that a protestant teenager was the one who had to teach me about the fact that salvation only comes from God’s grace. That is why I feel so strongly about this topic. I went to Catholic School for nine years, took three more years of CCD, and thought seriously about becoming a priest. I was recognized at my graduation with a gold cord as being the top student for religion in my class. Despite all of this, I didn’t even know that I couldn’t save myself and that salvation comes from God’s grace alone??? Something is wrong with this picture. I was lied to by the clergy and it made me angry!

If your priests Lied to you they need to be reported. This too would be standing up for what is right.

Peace
James

 

[Giacomo222]

Is it more important that one know “how” salvation works or is it more important that one know that salvation works and then proceeds to act on the grace received through their salvation?
I can tell you truly that I don’t know “how” salvation works. I only know that I have been saved, I am being saved, and I hope to be saved at my earthly death. Knowing this I act on my salvation in Love, through Love, and by extending God’s Love to others. Am I trying to “earn” salvation? Nope. I am merely acting on my faith.

Various Scholars of various times and denomination and outlook have studied the “hows” of salvation and not all have come up with the same conclusions. So when one asks “how does salvation work” you might get different answers depending on who you talk to, how they were taught, what their native speaking ability is etc.
Even if you were to do a “survey” the results will only be as accurate as the specific questions asked and the understandings of those questions by the reader.

Well you go guy. Teaching CCD will give you a great way to help improve catechesis in the next generation.

Peace
James

You can play semantics all you want James. The fact is that most Catholics don’t understand the simplicity of salvation. I know how tough this can be to accept for a Catholic because when I began to realize this sad fact, it made me quite sad and angry. For a while I was in denial. Now though, I have come to accept the truth and to do something about fixing the problem.

 

[JRKH]

You can play semantics all you want James. The fact is that most Catholics don’t understand the simplicity of salvation. I know how tough this can be to accept for a Catholic because when I began to realize this sad fact, it made me quite sad and angry. For a while I was in denial. Now though, I have come to accept the truth and to do something about fixing the problem.

In all charity - I think that perhaps you should look at your own “semantics”.
Facts are something that require substantiation. If you have facts (not just your "experience in your diocese and parish) then I think we would ALL appreciate your supplying the substantiation to this “FACT” that you assert.

Words are important - VERY important when one is discussing our understandings of things related to salvation. As such “semantics” are indeed important. So I do not “play semantics”. I ask for clarification. I ask myself and others to think carefully about the words we choose to use in discussion. I ask this for the very good reason that we are dealing with the saving of souls.

It is you you are asserting “facts” without proof or evidence. You assert as fact that, “most Catholics don’t understand the simplicity of salvation”, yet you have no evidence of this supposed worldwide (most Catholics) lack of understanding.
But then you wish to discount MY comments as “playing semantics”…

Your credibility is not being enhanced here…

Peace
James

 

[fred_conty]

Yesterday, I was reminded on this forum that we are saved by the Grace of God…not by our own good merits or works.

I need all of your opinions on something related to this topic. It seems like the average Catholic THINKS that a person can save him/herself through his/her own merits. I don’t believe that enough Catholics are aware that Only God’s grace can save us. Do you guys agree??

It seems that our Evangelical Brothers and sisters are more aware that we are saved by Grace not by works. Perhaps the clergy needs to do a better job of making this clear during sermons and perhaps our CCD programs need to do a better job of teaching this as well. What do you all think?

The faith in Jesus is truly a gift of grace and cannot be merited.

But after having said this, then enters not just grace, but also works.

Not by faith alone means works. Paul and James both mention works besides faith.
But “works” do not mean the same thing to both. And here is the reason.

In the old testiment, works were circumcision, purfication rites, dietary rules, Sabboth regulations, etc.

In the new testiment works were the beautitudes, 2 commandments at last supper, baptism, etc.

When Paul mentions works were not important in salvation, he was referring to especially the work of circumcision of the old testamant which was replaced by baptism in the new testament. He was saying that christians are not bound by those old works any longer since Jesus has given us the new baptism in him. Those old works are outdated and are no longer necessary to be followed. In the early church it seems that some christians were thinking that christians were really a full developement of, and an outgrowth from, the jewish religion and therefore circumcism was a preliminary rite prior to baptism. Paul was saying that we no longer need the law(jewish) of works for us to be saved. Or another way to put it is, we do not need to be jewish first to be christian, or to practise jewish works in addition to christian works.

However since in the new testament the word “works” is mentioned, it could refer to either the old works of the old religion, or this work could be referring to the new works of the new religion. The way to determine this is to look at the whole passage where it is used to make sense whether “works” refers to the old works or the new works.

So Paul would say works are not necessary meaning works relating to circumcision, diet, purification, etc.

So James would say works are necessary meaning works relating to baptism, charity, beatitudes, etc.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

No, sadly my knowledge of Catholic Theology used to be so poor that a protestant teenager was the one who had to teach me about the fact that salvation only comes from God’s grace. That is why I feel so strongly about this topic. I went to Catholic School for nine years, took three more years of CCD, and thought seriously about becoming a priest. I was recognized at my graduation with a gold cord as being the top student for religion in my class. Despite all of this, I didn’t even know that I couldn’t save myself and that salvation comes from God’s grace alone??? Something is wrong with this picture. I was lied to by the clergy and it made me angry!

Has it ever occurred to you that Catholic doctrine was correctly taught in your school and in CCD, but you failed to “get it”? “The clergy” has no reason to “lie” to Catholics about the teaching of the Church. That’s an absurd charge. I certainly hope your attitude toward the Church and her clergy changes before the CCD classes you are going to teach begin.

 

[Giacomo222]

Has it ever occurred to you that Catholic doctrine was correctly taught in your school and in CCD, but you failed to “get it”? “The clergy” has no reason to “lie” to Catholics about the teaching of the Church. That’s an absurd charge. I certainly hope your attitude toward the Church and her clergy changes before the CCD classes you are going to teach begin.

1. As for my attitude towards the clergy…I would never speak poorly of the clergy to my CCD students. That would only backfire and set bad example for them. Insetad of making them feel guilty because they haven’t memorized every prayer on the giant prayer list that the nun gives them, I simply am going to focus on God’s grace and how it allows us to have the faith and perform the works needed for salvation.
2. If I didn’t “get it” as you assert, then why was I given the award for top student in my class? If I didn’t get it then that doesn’t speak too well of my teachers’ judgement does it?
3. The clergy has every reason to lie to the people about Church teaching. They don’t want us to trust in God for our salvation…they want us to trust in THEM! That’s a great reason to lie to us. After all, if they tell us that we are saved by God’s grace and that you can’t save yourself through your own merits then people won’t go to mass anymore and there won’t be any money in the budget envelopes.

 

[PerfectTiming]

1. As for my attitude towards the clergy…I would never speak poorly of the clergy to my CCD students. That would only backfire and set bad example for them. Insetad of making them feel guilty because they haven’t memorized every prayer on the giant prayer list that the nun gives them, I simply am going to focus on God’s grace and how it allows us to have the faith and perform the works needed for salvation.

That right there sounds way too much like Protestant theology. I read in a previous post you said you realised the importance of grace from a Protestant and that is clearly a problem. A Protestant, no matter how devout, simply cannot give you an understanding of how salvation works because we as Catholics know that their understanding is wrong. God’s grace is important, yes. We need it. But by focusing too much on grace alone we forget the things that need to built on top of that. I say this not to offend or upset but you are focusing too much on grace alone - much like Protestants do - and all that will achieve is misleading your students. Protestants hold that one you have been ‘saved’ and have God’s grace then that’s it, you don’t need anything else. They have this delusion that good works come automatically from faith. We know this is not true.

I understand that you feel very strongly about this and I understand what you are trying to do and your intentions and ideals are good but you are still accidentally focusing too much on grace. There needs to be balance.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Closed pending Mod review.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Please scroll down to Number 9 before continuing this discussion.

 

[LovingMass]

It seems to me that salvation and grace are gifts from God and are always there and available to us, but that we need to be obedient in spirit and in action in order to obtain/maintain access to them.

 

[johnthebaptist1]

I always say Grace before meals, no matter if it is in a restaurant or At Home ,because I want to Thank God for all the things he gives me. I,am Happy for all the Grace, I receive from God ,and Jesus,for GOD AND JESUS, love us,and God, Sent his only son to save us ,and still pours out his Graces apound us, even thought were weak and offened His Son,that suffered on the Cross to Save us. Also Jesus Loves so much that ,even thought he Suffer for us, he pours out His Mercy and forgivness, threw the saying of the" Divine Mercy",which Jesus well forgive the hardess sinner If he only says it once durning his Life.