Grammatically, to whom is the "Glory be" Addressed?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ad_Orientem
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

Ad_Orientem

Guest
I realize that all prayer, including this one, is ultimately addressed to God. If you don’t care about the meaning of language, or think this is an absurd or useless question, kindly skip this thread.

Note there are words in the Mass which are addressed to the priest or people; for example, “The Lord be with you … And with your spirit”; “Lift up your hearts … We lift them up to the Lord…”, etc. and in the Liturgy of the Hours (via the Psalms and Daniel), though perhaps in a literary / figurative way, words are addressed to various levels of creation (“Bless the Lord, all you works of the Lord. … Hananiah, Azariah, Mishael, bless the Lord,” etc.). Though, again, I realize this is ultimately worship directed to God. My question is about the language and the manner in which God is worshiped.

Now look at “Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost,” etc. (or whichever version you use). For years I’ve been praying this beautiful prayer as part of the Divine Office, the Rosary, etc, and it just occurred to me, each Person of the Blessed Trinity is named in the third person. In other words, it does not say, “We give you glory, O Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,” but rather, “May glory be given to the Father,” etc. It uses the passive voice. In that case, grammatically, is it addressed to anyone at all (I know, ultimately to God)? Is it a literary device which addresses God in an indirect manner? Is it an expression of a pious desire? Is it rather an exhortation to others?–May you/others give glory to God? All of the above? None of the above?
 
There is no verb in the Latin.

Best translation IMO is the Gloria’s. Glory to God in the highest…
 
Ad_Orientem said:
I realize that all prayer, including this one, is ultimately addressed to God. If you don’t care about the meaning of language, or think this is an absurd or useless question, kindly skip this thread.

Note there are words in the Mass which are addressed to the priest or people; for example, “The Lord be with you … And with your spirit”; “Lift up your hearts … We lift them up to the Lord…”, etc. and in the Liturgy of the Hours (via the Psalms and Daniel), though perhaps in a literary / figurative way, words are addressed to various levels of creation (“Bless the Lord, all you works of the Lord. … Hananiah, Azariah, Mishael, bless the Lord,” etc.). Though, again, I realize this is ultimately worship directed to God. My question is about the language and the manner in which God is worshiped.

Now look at “Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost,” etc. (or whichever version you use). For years I’ve been praying this beautiful prayer as part of the Divine Office, the Rosary, etc, and it just occurred to me, each Person of the Blessed Trinity is named in the third person. In other words, it does not say, “We give you glory, O Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,” but rather, “May glory be given to the Father,” etc. It uses the passive voice. In that case, grammatically, is it addressed to anyone at all (I know, ultimately to God)? Is it a literary device which addresses God in an indirect manner? Is it an expression of a pious desire? Is it rather an exhortation to others?–May you/others give glory to God? All of the above? None of the above?
Click to expand...
It is a doxology addressed to the Trinity.
 
The current US English drops the “be” verb and renders the prayer as, “Glory to the Father…”

I interpret this to, “I/we give glory to…”
 
To the Holy Trinity.

It is an act of adoration etc to the Most Holy Trinity.
 
It is reminiscent of the Gospel of Luke 2:14 where the angels sing “glory to God in the highest”. It is a proclamationto addressed to all who can hear.
 
The verb “be” would be in the subjunctive as it is used in English; we might also say “May glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit” if we think of it this way. In Latin, there is no verb, but “Patri,” “Filio,” and “Spiritui Sancto” are in the dative, and thus this indicates “to” or “for.” Latin is tricky like that, not necessarily requiring a verb in order to make a sentence intelligible (Semitic languages do this too). The “be” is added in English as a sort of helping verb, although it isn’t strictly necessary; the version of the doxology found in the Liturgy of the Hours does not have “be” in it.

-Fr ACEGC
 
Here is a quote from St. Francis de Sales that I found in my Little Office’s section on the Gloria Patri that might help answer your question:
It is not only the glory that Jesus Christ renders Him in His humanity and by His saints; it is a glory incomparably more perfect. The human acts of our Saviour, although infinite in value and merit on account of the Person who produced them, are not therefore infinite essentially, because they are performed according to His human nature and substance, which is finite. God cannot be glorified according to His merit except by Himself, He alone being capable of equalling His goodness by a sovereign praise. In this sense we cry aloud: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. And that it may be understood that it is not the glory of created praises that we wish to God by these words, but truly the essential and eternal glory which He has in Himself, we add: As it was in the beginning, etc. And we add this to each psalm, as was ordained by Pope. St. Damasus, in order to protest that every praise, both human and angelic, is but a small thing for God, and that to be worthily praised it is necessary that He Himself should be His glory, His praise, and His benediction.
Click to expand...
 
Argh, did no one read my post?

I know it is an act of worship to God. Note the word “grammatically” in the thread title. This is a language question!
ProVobis said:
There is no verb in the Latin.
Click to expand...
Yes, but this doesn’t change the fact that the Divine Persons are mentioned in the third person rather than in the first person. (Referring there not to the identity of the Divine Persons as such, but to grammatical person.)
edward_george said:
The verb “be” would be in the subjunctive as it is used in English; we might also say “May glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit” if we think of it this way. In Latin, there is no verb, but “Patri,” “Filio,” and “Spiritui Sancto” are in the dative, and thus this indicates “to” or “for.” Latin is tricky like that, not necessarily requiring a verb in order to make a sentence intelligible (Semitic languages do this too). The “be” is added in English as a sort of helping verb, although it isn’t strictly necessary; the version of the doxology found in the Liturgy of the Hours does not have “be” in it.

-Fr ACEGC
Click to expand...
This is closer to what I’m looking for, Father, but still doesn’t answer my question. Why is the third person case used, or according to the English rendering you give (which I also gave above), why the passive voice? Does this mean it is not addressed directly to God, but to, e.g., the worshiping community?
 
I think it is a declaration/exclamation/affirmation/supplication by the one offering the prayer to the whole of the created order; culminating in the Holy Trinity, of course, as the source of all that is. Sort of like if I were to stand up in a stadium with the mic and declare to all hearers, elements, powers- Glory be …

There is amazing power in declaring what is TRUE- and that is why this acclamation is unparalleled in its value as a prayer of praise, submission, and humility.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
Note there are words in the Mass which are addressed to the priest or people; for example, “The Lord be with you … And with your spirit”; “Lift up your hearts … We lift them up to the Lord…”, etc.
Click to expand...
Not to belabor my point but there is no verb either in Dominus vobiscum and Sursum corda. In fact there is no “your” or “lift” in the latter either. The translation could have easily been more literal as it is in Polish, for example, without the verb, although this might not be so pleasing to the Anglophonic ear.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
Argh, did no one read my post?
Click to expand...
LOL
Yes. It’s an interesting question.
To whom exactly are the heavenly host of angels talking at Revelation 7:10 or Luke 2:14?

You wanna know who I think they are addressing - and who we are addressing in the Gloria?

“Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

It’s a jubelruf you can even say it ‘to’ yourself.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
I realize that all prayer, including this one, is ultimately addressed to God. If you don’t care about the meaning of language, or think this is an absurd or useless question, kindly skip this thread.

Note there are words in the Mass which are addressed to the priest or people; for example, “The Lord be with you … And with your spirit”; “Lift up your hearts … We lift them up to the Lord…”, etc. and in the Liturgy of the Hours (via the Psalms and Daniel), though perhaps in a literary / figurative way, words are addressed to various levels of creation (“Bless the Lord, all you works of the Lord. … Hananiah, Azariah, Mishael, bless the Lord,” etc.). Though, again, I realize this is ultimately worship directed to God. My question is about the language and the manner in which God is worshiped.

Now look at “Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost,” etc. (or whichever version you use). For years I’ve been praying this beautiful prayer as part of the Divine Office, the Rosary, etc, and it just occurred to me, each Person of the Blessed Trinity is named in the third person. In other words, it does not say, “We give you glory, O Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,” but rather, “May glory be given to the Father,” etc. It uses the passive voice. In that case, grammatically, is it addressed to anyone at all (I know, ultimately to God)? Is it a literary device which addresses God in an indirect manner? Is it an expression of a pious desire? Is it rather an exhortation to others?–May you/others give glory to God? All of the above? None of the above?
Click to expand...
It is the language of worship but more pertinent, Catholic usage. When we declare words of praise and worship to God, in the Glory Be, it is specifically the Holy Trinity, we proclaim the truth about God and that glorifying him is for all creations, not just individuals, like you and I. It is a great way of saying, the highest glory belong to you, O God, and this is known/acknowledged by all the earth.

The third person usage would denote this. This perhaps is the difference in worship compared to Protestants, especially Evangelicals, where first person is popularly employed, ’ I love you Lord, I worship and adore you’.

Catholic worship/prayer emphasis is more corporate in nature - Our Father, Holy Mary pray for us, … corporate. Of course, there is nothing wrong in using the first person, but our common recited prayers seem to more in the third, which you rightly observed.
 
Reuben_J said:
The third person usage would denote this. This perhaps is the difference in worship compared to Protestants, especially Evangelicals, where first person is popularly employed, ’ I love you Lord, I worship and adore you’.
Click to expand...
:confused:

Wouldn’t that be the second person rather than the third? The first person is another person altogether and is the subject in this case.
 
ProVobis said:
:confused:

Wouldn’t that be the second person rather than the third? The first person is another person altogether and is the subject in this case.
Click to expand...
Thanks for pointing that out. :o:thumbsup:

My mistake. It should be plural first person, not third. Glory be, as spoken by all, us, to God, not just the speaker, I, only.
 
When we say it together at Mass, it is an implied first person plural. But we are saying it alone at home, it’s an implied first person plural.

And you can see it as a subjunctive (ie, a blessing and praise) or as a literal present tense (ie, a description that God in fact is given glory in the highest).

Shrug. It’s all nouns in Greek.
 
Reuben_J said:
My mistake. It should be plural first person, not third. Glory be, as spoken by all, us, to God, not just the speaker, I, only.
Click to expand...
How were “I” or “we” or “us” ever in the third person? Are you perhaps confusing person with usage in a sentence?

By the way, here is a question for you. If we address the Deity in the second person “you” is it singular or plural?
 
Now we’re getting somewhere. I like the insights about declaring truth, but are we merely declaring that glory belongs to God (i.e. his intrinsic glory)? Are we not expressing the desire or exhortation that glory be ascribed to him, or that glory be added unto him (i.e. his extrinsic glory)? Is it all of the above?

If there are no verbs in either the Greek or the Latin, it would seem that any of the above interpretations could justly follow. Is that the case, or does the absence of verbs signify a particular meaning?
 
Ad_Orientem said:
Now we’re getting somewhere. I like the insights about declaring truth, but are we merely declaring that glory belongs to God (i.e. his intrinsic glory)? Are we not expressing the desire or exhortation that glory be ascribed to him, or that glory be added unto him (i.e. his extrinsic glory)? Is it all of the above?

If there are no verbs in either the Greek or the Latin, it would seem that any of the above interpretations could justly follow. Is that the case, or does the absence of verbs signify a particular meaning?
Click to expand...
I think so. English is a wonderful analytical tool and can be used to examine possibilities. But you take 10 different translators and you will get 10 different translations. And then 30 years later you will get 10 better translations. One may conclude IMO at very best they are educated guesses.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top