Grand Jury Excoriated Philadelphia Archdiocese

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malibu364:
mgy100 and gnjsdad – while I respect your point of view, your responses smack of the “shoot the messenger” philosophy.
Why, some messengers deserve to be shot (metaphorically only, of course) 🙂
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malibu364:
I don’t expect a newspaper to cover in depth analysis of Catholic moral and theological issues. That’s an everyday battle for all of us, which isn’t particularly newsworthy. We shouldn’t expect the newspaper to become an arm of the Church, nor should we maintain the notion that media organizations are desirous of having the Church controlled by the State. This investigation did not entail reports of a single abuser, but large numbers of child abuse cases and potential “cover-up” spanning a number of years. This was a newsworthy story and was handled as such from my perspective. What was reported in the news section of the paper was fine by me. I didn’t really care what the editorial writers had to say. I read the entire grand jury report and the Archdiocese’s response on line where available and actually printed them both out in their entirety (over 500 pages of material). All that being said, I’m sure that there were some people who were just jumping for joy that the Archdiocese of Philadelphia and the Catholic Church were getting knocked around here. But I don’t go for that anti-Catholic bias, “Oh! woe is us” shtick.
I’ll concede your point if the following happens:

The grand jury releases its findings of its investigation of the Protestant ministry and the local rabbinate.

The Inquirer and other Philadelphia media give those findings the exact same prominence and scrutiny they gave to the archdiocessan revelations.

BTW, anti-Catholic bias is not “schtick”. It most definitely exists. The only people entitled to be outraged at these sickening revelations are those people of all faiths who are trying to lead a life of prayer and reverence for God. All the others are just spitting in the Church’s eye.
 
gnjsdad, I take it, then, that you won’t be conceding my point too soon, since I don’t expect to see anything like what you want to see reported by the media anytime soon. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

This is not to concede that the claims of anti-Catholic bias are not exaggerated. That’s what I meant by the use of “shtick”, not a routine or gimmick, but an exaggeration. Now, I suppose I could be wrong, but then again I don’t travel in the same circles as Karl Keating or William Donohue. Some, probably most, of the things Karl Keating does are wonderful by actually helping to explain our own faith to us so that we can explain it to others and, thereby, evangelize properly. To my mind, William Donohue is a “cry-baby”, and, when I have seen him on TV, he does himself, and indirectly, the faith he so staunchly attempts to defend, a disservice by his loud, intolerant tone. But that’s me.

My only evidence (or non-evidence as the case may be) is anecdotal. I, personally, have never experienced anti-Catholic bias. I am 48 years old, and am a cradle Catholic. No one I know who is a Catholic has ever mentioned to me that they have seen or experienced anti-Catholic bias. However, I don’t doubt that it exists. The only times I’ve heard anti-Catholic bias raised have to do with the clergy sexual abuse issue. And I personally don’t think it’s a strong case because: (1) when you hold yourself up as the moral standard-bearer for the world, some people are going to be gunning for you, and (2) Christ, Himself, told us that this was going to happen, i.e., that we may be persecuted for His sake. Yet I don’t recall His instructions in this regard to be something like, “Well, just make sure everybody else gets a taste of it, too.” My recollection is that He told us to react somewhat differently.

Finally, with regard to the clergy sexual abuse cases in the Catholic Church, the argument has been put forth that it’s only a small percentage of the priests involved, no more than in any other faith or segment of the population. Well, I have not investigated this claim specifically, but I’ll stipulate to that point that it’s only a small percentage. But, (and a big but), I’ll also stipulate that the percentage of the Church hierarchy that knew about the claims of clergy sexual abuse and either (1) looked the other way, (2) did not speak out, or (3) merely sent the abuser packing to another unsuspecting parish was fairly large. In fact, within an Archdiocese, for the top man, either an Archbishop or a Cardinal, the percentage was 100%! Also, for those who worked for the Archbishop is the capacity of dealing with such cases, the percentage was fairly large. Also, for the Catholic priestly community within an Archdiocese, which is fairly tight-knit community that shares that rare kind of seminary and pastoral experience, I’d be hard pressed to believe most did not suspect something terrible was going on for decades (as they may have heard rumors or noted the multiple transfers), and knew it was not being addressed properly, but just being continually swept under the rug. But it’s difficult to blame parish priests for not blowing the whistle or to expect them to abandon their calling if their “boss” is irresponsible on such a major problem.

That being said, the Church will survive this, we just need to get it out in the open and talk about it.
 
Most people here seem to be relatively intelligent. That being said I cannot believe what people are saying about the Bishops. Does anyone really think that it was the intent of the Bishops to allow these men to harm children. First of all a few things must be set straight.

A vast majority of the problem is that of a preditory homosexual nature called ephebophilia (the disordered attraction to post pubecent children) and most of these cases deal with young men in their late teens. I don’t know if anyone knows this but a lot of kids in their late teens are sexual active in western society. Yes, it is wrong but it is a reality.

Second, there are true pedophiles and they are sociopaths so it is near impossible to determine if a person is a pedophile or not. There are no reliable psychological testing that can be done. The only thing that can be done is find them after they have acted out unfortunatelly. Also, it was not known by the clinical world untill very recently that pedophilia cannot be cured (only arrested) and it was at the advice of professionals that Bishops acted as they did.

A Bishop is not a psychologist, not a lawyer, not a dentist or any other profession and must rely on the expert advice on things that are outside his competence. I happen to know a few of these bishops and I can tell you that they are hurt that they did not see the futility of the clinical treatment that these men received which led to more problems and they are hurt that the lay faithful are not supporting them when they did what they thought was right and good for the whole.

People, we cannot have it both ways. We cannot find something that we have no way of finding and we cannot on the one hand ask the Bishops to listen to the experts to tell them to get rid of a priest and on the other hand have them listen to the very same experts that say that these same priests are fine and can go back to limited ministry. Any intelligent person can see the problem with this. It frustrates me to no end when people accuse the Bishops of cover-up, pressuring families, etc. Nine out of ten times such alligations are not true.

Why is it that no one seems to trust the legal system until it attacks the Church? Something to think about.
 
RE Mosher # 22
Have you read any of the findings of the grand juries ? You seem like some one who is judgeing a movie without having seen it.
They have Cardinal Law on video tape. Admitting some of the stuff that caused the former governor of Oklahoma to refer to the catholic hierarchy as the MAFIA.
The Archbishop of Philadelphia tried to get the faithful not to read the grand jury report,why?
You like many want to give the bishops a pass. They didn’t know, thats an old song. At the end of WWII you couldn’t find a German that knew what Hitler had done,all you heard was, " we knew nothing " it was baloey !
Jesus said those that lead children to sin, death is too good for them. How is it our bishops didn’t realize how serious this was ? Priests are being dissmissed on the flimsiestof charges, while bishops who made it possible for the number of children that were molested to be as high as it is,are getting a pass.That isnt justice !
 
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mosher:
A Bishop is not a psychologist, not a lawyer, not a dentist or any other profession and must rely on the expert advice on things that are outside his competence…
I don’t expect expert opinion… i simply expect a little common sense in my leaders. If a priest is known to abuse children (the one i’m thinking of was labeled a “uncurable pedophile” by psychologists, you don’t put him as chaplain of a day camp. (as is the case in one priest in philly). another priest who was accused and is now removed from his duties was made PASTOR of a young parish i still go to…
this is just dumb beyond words.
i’m amazed at the lack of thought they put into this. I love my Catholic church… but bad decision were made, to deny that is to deny the truth.
 
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mosher:
A Bishop is not a psychologist, not a lawyer, not a dentist or any other profession and must rely on the expert advice on things that are outside his competence. I happen to know a few of these bishops and I can tell you that they are hurt that they did not see the futility of the clinical treatment that these men received which led to more problems and they are hurt that the lay faithful are not supporting them when they did what they thought was right and good for the whole.
You have put your finger on the problem. Bishops are not psychologists. They are shepherds. And obviously, our shepherds trusted the wrong people.

Who are the psychologists who told the bishops that the priests under their authority who were abusing minor children could be dealt with in the way they were dealt with? What are their credentials? At what institutions did they acquire their credentials? Were these so-called experts schooled in institutions where the notion that sexual expression is natural and ought not to be inhibited? Were the “experts” unaware of the harm that sexual contact between adults and children does to the children? Or worse, did the “experts” dismiss the notion that such contact is harmful at all?

The dereliction of duty shown by our shepherds is appalling. Why do our bishops seem to beg for the crumbs that fall from the American assimilationist table rather than stand up to the dominant culture (which has been thoroughly sexualized) and act like the Catholic shepherds they are supposed to be? Are they so afraid of appearing “un-American”, that they are willing to sell out the souls of the innocents who were abused for fear of earning the hostility of the media organs of the dominant culture? It’s obvious that they are earning that, regardless.
 
I am reading a book called “The Church that Forgot Christ” by Jimmy Breslin. Ouch.

People make mistakes. Bishops and cardinals and such are people, and we can expect them to make mistakes as well. Some mistakes are worse than others, and I can’t imagine too many mistakes worse than these.

But we are taught that it’s not enough to recognize our mistakes and admit them to ourselves. We are to admit them to those whom we have wronged, and we are to do our best to repair them.

In this our leaders have failed.

We are failing, too. This really happened. And every time we blame lawyers, journalists, “the dominant culture,” homosexuals, or, may God have mercy on us, the victims, then we fail again. And everytime we say, “Well, Protestants and Jews do it too,” we fail.

Our leaders failed us. They failed us horribly. They failed our children in the most reprehensible way possible. And when we fail to hold them accountable, we fail again.

Yes, we’re being persecuted. Yes, lawyers and journalists are gunning for us. What we don’t seem to get is this: Maybe we have it coming.
 
From The Philadelphia Inquirer on 09/28/2005:

Priests reportedly chastise cardinal
Three hundred priests of the Philadelphia Archdiocese met yesterday with Cardinal Justin Rigali, a 90-minute conclave at which some challenged his defense of the previous archbishops named in a grand jury report on clergy sex abuse. Priests attending the meeting at the chapel of St. Charles Borromeo Seminary in Wynnewood said afterward that Rigali told them that “mistakes were made” by the archdiocese in its handling of abusers and victims. But, “nobody’s perfect… . No one is without sin,” Rigali reportedly added. His remarks, which echoed those he has made since the report was issued one week ago, reportedly irked some of the priests, who told him so.
One pastor took to the microphone to say he was “greatly disappointed in the archdiocese’s weak and deplorable” defense of Cardinals John Krol and Anthony J. Bevilacqua. The criticism was greeted with scattered applause, sources said. The meeting was private, but some priests agreed to disclose what had occurred if they could remain anonymous. Another priest - trained in moral theology - reportedly lectured the cardinal yesterday for defending Krol and Bevilacqua on grounds that they had never intended to hurt children. “You seem to stress intention. You try to claim there was never a wrong intention,” the priest reportedly told Rigali. But from a Catholic moral perspective, he said, the “horrific” outcomes of Krol’s and Bevilacqua’s cover-up vastly outweigh their efforts to protect the archdiocese from scandal. “The people are not interested in intentions,” he told the cardinal.
A third priest reportedly asked Rigali if he could “shed light on the impression” that the archdiocese under Bevilacqua and Krol had “put too much reliance on legal wisdom, or the wisdom of the world, and not enough reliance on Jesus and the Gospel.” Rigali “really did not answer,” said one priest who attended the meeting, which included prayer and readings from St. Paul and Timothy. He characterized Rigali’s remarks as “diplomatic.” A fourth priest told the cardinal it was “the wrong time to defend the indefensible.”
 
For Donna Mc, and others who may be interested:

You asked what you can do about this. One thing that helped me back in 2002 was a book recommended by a parish priest, a moral theologian, during one of his homilies.

By George Weigel, Catholic Theologian
*The Courage to Be Catholic *
Crisis, Reform, and the Future of the Church

An excellent and not difficult book to read, that was widely circulated among the hierarchy of the Church, including the Vatican, after the scandals in Boston erupted. For those that haven’t yet read it, highly recommended.
 
Everyone has heard of the "Blue Wall of silence " that encompasses policemen.How they stick together and never turn each other in.Or Docters how hard it is to get one docter to say anything bad about anther one. Our Bishops have turned out to be the same.Did we expect more from those in God’s service,yes. Did we get it ,NO !
In this scandal the only people not punished are the bishops. The Victims,most certainly, the Priests all that could be. The church has not, on its own. Punished one bishop,not one ! Even when their own investigating panel recommended the removal of 4 bishops.The Conference of Catholic bishops did nothing. Like police and docters our bshops take care of their own.
 
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gnjsdad:
You have put your finger on the problem. Bishops are not psychologists. They are shepherds. And obviously, our shepherds trusted the wrong people.

Who are the psychologists who told the bishops that the priests under their authority who were abusing minor children could be dealt with in the way they were dealt with? What are their credentials? At what institutions did they acquire their credentials? Were these so-called experts schooled in institutions where the notion that sexual expression is natural and ought not to be inhibited? Were the “experts” unaware of the harm that sexual contact between adults and children does to the children? Or worse, did the “experts” dismiss the notion that such contact is harmful at all?

The dereliction of duty shown by our shepherds is appalling. Why do our bishops seem to beg for the crumbs that fall from the American assimilationist table rather than stand up to the dominant culture (which has been thoroughly sexualized) and act like the Catholic shepherds they are supposed to be? Are they so afraid of appearing “un-American”, that they are willing to sell out the souls of the innocents who were abused for fear of earning the hostility of the media organs of the dominant culture? It’s obvious that they are earning that, regardless.
I am glad you asked this question. Most of the Bishops were given this advisement by some of the most respected in the field. Unlike my former Archbishop who was given the same advice by unqualified persons. One can cite professionals from the St. Luke Institute as being an advisor in such cases and in other cases many well educated psychologists had been used by Dioceses to try and fix the problem. Such things are a matter of public record but the problem resides with the advancement of clinical understanding of pedophilia which has only recently (after a vast majority of the problems) was determined by clinical medicine to not be curable but only arrestable. On one hand we want our Bishops to trust the experts and on the other hand we don’t want them to trust the experts. This is unjust to the Bishops. Until a mitre is on my head I will not presume to know what it is like to have to deal with this type of situation.
 
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JOHNYJ:
Everyone has heard of the "Blue Wall of silence " that encompasses policemen.How they stick together and never turn each other in.Or Docters how hard it is to get one docter to say anything bad about anther one. Our Bishops have turned out to be the same.Did we expect more from those in God’s service,yes. Did we get it ,NO !
In this scandal the only people not punished are the bishops. The Victims,most certainly, the Priests all that could be. The church has not, on its own. Punished one bishop,not one ! Even when their own investigating panel recommended the removal of 4 bishops.The Conference of Catholic bishops did nothing. Like police and docters our bshops take care of their own.
First, the USCCB can do nothing because they have no jurisdiction over any individual Bishop only Rome can make such a move. Further, I do not trust the USCCB as far as I can throw it to make objective decisions when it is in the “fish bowl.” I trust Rome and the decisions that they have made and I believe that they have been prudent ones.
 
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JOHNYJ:
RE Mosher # 22
Have you read any of the findings of the grand juries ? You seem like some one who is judgeing a movie without having seen it.
They have Cardinal Law on video tape. Admitting some of the stuff that caused the former governor of Oklahoma to refer to the catholic hierarchy as the MAFIA.
The Archbishop of Philadelphia tried to get the faithful not to read the grand jury report,why?
You like many want to give the bishops a pass. They didn’t know, thats an old song. At the end of WWII you couldn’t find a German that knew what Hitler had done,all you heard was, " we knew nothing " it was baloey !
Jesus said those that lead children to sin, death is too good for them. How is it our bishops didn’t realize how serious this was ? Priests are being dissmissed on the flimsiestof charges, while bishops who made it possible for the number of children that were molested to be as high as it is,are getting a pass.That isnt justice !
Yes, I am an avid reader of depositions and the like, my friends think that I have too much time on my hands. However, there is nothing in the deposition of the Grand Jury that leads me to believe in other than honorable intent. I can tell you from the experience that I have from my Archdiocese which had to deal with this problem over a decade before it hit Boston it is a difficult road to hoe. First, a Bishops must consult the experts when an problem or accusation occures of any type with a priest. Then the priest is sent for treatment then an internal investigation takes place and usually in the case of the claim of abuse a settlement is reached in a mutual agreement to keep it out of court because the Church requires that public scandal be avoided (per canon law). Is there a wall of silence, yes, when a confidentiality agreement has been made it is required by law and if a family feels intimidated by a priest in a collar trying to reach this decision it is not the priest’s fault. Confidentiality agreements are standard practice for sexual abuse cases and in some states are manditory for the sake of the victim. To balance the requirements of civil law, canon law, and clinical diagnosis is a bit challenging. Further, the Church has to filter out the false cases which are many. In my Archdiocese alone there was a large amount of false cases by families trying to get rich of the Church. It is not that I have not seen the movie but rather that my perspective is one from seeing the movie being made without the special effects - in other words a healthy dose of realism.
 
RE : Mosher # 32
The best available scientific and mediacal advise available.
Thats funny, when it comes to preaching against Gays, abortion,birth control the bishops quote Levitiicus or Saint Paul ,they go right to the bible. They don’t listen to medicine or science about how to avoid spreading AIDS,but.Child molesting and all of a sudden their believers in science and medicine ?
They have as far as I can remember never preached about leading children to sin, yet there it is in the Gospel of Saint Matthew.
Money and Image thats what they were worried about,not children,not the fathful. Now its cost them both !
Lawyers thats who they listened to.As we speak the bishops are keeping the scandal alive by their selfserving actions.
 
RE : Mosher 31
The Catholic chuch is 2,000 years old and one of the most legalistic institutions in the world. Just look at the new Catechism,its a Tome . That the USCCB could do nothing about bishops that had disgraced their office is hogwash.
The good old boys network was protecting its own.
I feel most sorry for the good priests who on the flimsiest of accusations were and are removed from their posts and have their lives ruined.While bishops that actualy helped pedophiles are still in office.
 
The most interesting statistic and, least talked about, in the study that was done in the John Jay study. was that 57% of the 1100 priest involved only had one complaint against them.
My conclusions and I could be wrong is the majority in this category
were young Homosexual priests unable to copt with celbacy.
This statistic This also supports the Vatican attempt to remove SSA
canidates from the seminaries.
 
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JOHNYJ:
The Catholic chuch is 2,000 years old and one of the most legalistic institutions in the world. Just look at the new Catechism,its a Tome . That the USCCB could do nothing about bishops that had disgraced their office is hogwash.
The good old boys network was protecting its own.
I feel most sorry for the good priests who on the flimsiest of accusations were and are removed from their posts and have their lives ruined.While bishops that actualy helped pedophiles are still in office.
I submit the following notion for your possible reflection:

As the bishops who did this were being “formed” in their seminaries and in their pastoral duties it was drummed into them that the cardinal sin for anyone engaged in pastoral care was to allow “scandal to the church” and so the idea that everything bad had to be “kept quiet” for fear of scandallizing the flock was planted, watered and grew. Like the kudzu vine it began to slowly strangle truth in many instances --then came the experts who advised them. What happened is the result of many factors.

And I agree with you about other priests who have done nothing but live out their vocations, serve their people, their church and are vulnerable to any reporter or nitwit who decides he must have 15 minutes of fame. Their shame as a brotherhood at having had wolves among them is painful enough – the betrayal of everything they believed, preached and taught, having to face hostile congregations, watching their church bankrupted, hearing the pain of the victims, the media, has been a living nightmare. Many of them are beaten bloody psychologically and it would be nice if we could all remember to give them a kind word and some support when we have the opportunity to do so.

Bishop Sheen once commented in his “Treasure in Clay” that at the end of his life a priest will often find himself crucified upon a cross – the priests of today are indeed walking calvary in many cases. God bless’em. And to the day I die, I will never forget the shouts of joy, the smiles and the tears of relief when those kids at the North American College heard the announcement of “The Ratz” as our new pope. They proudly proclaimed themselves as JPII priests in interview after interview. May God give them grace and courage for the days ahead. It was pure joy to see and hear them. A new morning is dawning for the church and in many unexpected ways.
 
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JOHNYJ:
RE : Mosher # 32
The best available scientific and mediacal advise available.
Thats funny, when it comes to preaching against Gays, abortion,birth control the bishops quote Levitiicus or Saint Paul ,they go right to the bible. They don’t listen to medicine or science about how to avoid spreading AIDS,but.Child molesting and all of a sudden their believers in science and medicine ?
They have as far as I can remember never preached about leading children to sin, yet there it is in the Gospel of Saint Matthew.
Money and Image thats what they were worried about,not children,not the fathful. Now its cost them both !
Lawyers thats who they listened to.As we speak the bishops are keeping the scandal alive by their selfserving actions.
Actually this is backwards or at least inverted. The Church holds strict to the scientific cure for AIDS and the scientific end of the spread of AIDS as abstinance is the only sure and ethical way to end it. When it comes to the so called issues about image and money you are correct to a point. Without money they cannot do a lot of the good works that they do nor keep the lights on in the churches and image because the Church must avoid even the apperance of scandel for the sake of the spiritually weak and the whole of the faithful. To call the actions of the Bishops self-serving is to have a warped perspective of the decisions and why they were made.
 
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JOHNYJ:
RE : Mosher 31
The Catholic chuch is 2,000 years old and one of the most legalistic institutions in the world. Just look at the new Catechism,its a Tome . That the USCCB could do nothing about bishops that had disgraced their office is hogwash.
The good old boys network was protecting its own.
I feel most sorry for the good priests who on the flimsiest of accusations were and are removed from their posts and have their lives ruined.While bishops that actualy helped pedophiles are still in office.
This catechism is not law and is no larger than the Roman Catechism of Trent. Actually in textual size it is smaller than the Roman Catechism. But yes there is much legalism and that is because as St. Thomas said we have laws to help us live as if the fall never happened and it is those laws that are to help bind us to the laws of true love and fidelity that are valid. To believe that the USCCB has some jurisdiction is to completely missunderstand the purpose and scope of any Bishops Conference.
 
RE; MOsher # 37
Than you admit that to our bishops ,money and image are more important than children or the faithful in general?
I thought Jesus drove the money changers ,out of the Temple !
You use the past tense to describe the bshops actions.You are incorrect, they are continuing those policies that keep he Scandal alive.The archbishop of Los Angeles has spent untold hundreds of thousands of dollars for beverly hills lawyers. To keep what he and his predacessors have been doing in the archdiocese of Los Angeles, a secret , Many people suspect that when the scandal breaks there .It will make boston look like a picnic.
 
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