Grandma' baptized the children behind their parents' back, what now?

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salusanimarum17 said:
Source? Certainly since the time of St. Thomas Aquinas, if not before, it was understood that an adult cannot be validly baptized without having an intention to be baptized.
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Grade 12 History Class on Canadian History, university level Native Studies class, etc. I don’t have my notes anymore, but if you know anything about Canadian history and the relationship between the Catholic Church and the aboriginals, you’ll understand where I’m coming from.
 
Love_Divine said:
Grade 12 History Class on Canadian History, university level Native Studies class, etc. I don’t have my notes anymore, but if you know anything about Canadian history and the relationship between the Catholic Church and the aboriginals, you’ll understand where I’m coming from.
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I don’t know much of anything about Canadian history so I don’t understand where you are coming from.
 
Irishgal49, I was speaking on valid baptism. It would not be licit, but valid. Im guilty of being a proactive evangelist, and believe heavily in Baptism. Not that I go around baptizing kids without their parents consent, although I have personally done it before to adults.

As I read once, *‘The highest law in the Church which precedes all laws regardless is the salvation of souls.’ *Baptism, although not a get out of jail free card, is a very, very, very x100 important in salvation of the soul. Just as the tribe of Judea was baptized in fire and blood for their salvation, so must we baptize the gentiles invoking the trinity for the good of their salvation.

Yes, an honest baptized is much preferred, and I completely agree. But if someone came up to me and said, ‘I love Jesus, and I love God, I want to be with him for eternity. Can I be baptized?’ Id do it in a heartbeat.

Children, I would probably be more cautious about (Under the age of emancipation), Id only do it if I was sure that they needed it then because they were dieing or other extreme circumstances.
 
As a grandmother who will probably never see her grandchild baptized, I understand where your Mom was coming from. You have no idea how difficult it has been not to baptize that child when I’m giving him a bath. I’ve actually had a priest tell me he was surprised I hadn’t done it. 😦 I keep telling myself I’d be obligating him to things he’d never know about because I’m not living anywhere near him.
 
ConstantinePX said:
Irishgal49, I was speaking on valid baptism. It would not be licit, but valid. Im guilty of being a proactive evangelist, and believe heavily in Baptism. Not that I go around baptizing kids without their parents consent, although I have personally done it before to adults.

As I read once, *‘The highest law in the Church which precedes all laws regardless is the salvation of souls.’ *Baptism, although not a get out of jail free card, is a very, very, very x100 important in salvation of the soul. Just as the tribe of Judea was baptized in fire and blood for their salvation, so must we baptize the gentiles invoking the trinity for the good of their salvation.

Yes, an honest baptized is much preferred, and I completely agree. But if someone came up to me and said, ‘I love Jesus, and I love God, I want to be with him for eternity. Can I be baptized?’ Id do it in a heartbeat.

Children, I would probably be more cautious about (Under the age of emancipation), Id only do it if I was sure that they needed it then because they were dieing or other extreme circumstances.
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But they were not in danger of death and there was no consent of the parents.
 
Love_Divine said:
Been there, done that. When the Jesuit missionaries first came to Canada in the 1600s, they tricked the Huron aboriginals into being baptized through various means.
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AND the curious Catholic might inquire into the numbers of Hurons associated with N American “martyrs”…
 
RyanBlack said:
It seems that you are conflating licity and validity. From what has been described in this case, it seems clear that the baptisms were not licit. However, if they were done with water, using the Trinitarian formula, and with the intent of actually baptizing, then they are indeed valid, in spite of the fact that they are clearly illicit. The fact that there was no danger of death does not affect the issue of validity, merely that of licity.
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I do NOT agree. If my ex-husband kidnaps your child and dunks him/her in a Mikvah and she/he is now Jewish how would you feel? That is WRONG
 
Some Christians feel truly called to evangelize and save souls. Others are more exclusive with their religion. Its a matter of perspective.

I would be very upset if my child was kidnapped and dunked in a Mikvah, mainly because the key word is kidnapped.

If a Jewish person did it out of the blue or for some reason, without kidnapping or something that would endanger my child because they felt the need to ensure the salvation of the childs soul… I would be alittle bewildered that they didnt ask for consent of me or the kid, but I would appreciate the gesture. So long as the gesture is constructive and good intentioned, I could care less if a Buddhist monk poored water on me or my child and blessed me. I would probably laugh and thank him.

Note the use, constructive and good intentioned. e.g. things that dont do harm.

These kids were baptized by their grandmother. A) Hardly kidnapping and B) It was their GRANDMOTHER, Just because it is her 2nd generation children does not mean she should not have some sort of following on their faith.

Remember when as parents you confirmed/baptized your child and you made a promise to raise your kids in the faith? Same principle.
 
CuriousBystandr said:
My mother, who is now deceased, was a staunch Catholic. She took it upon herself to Baptize these two children. Her theory was that God, through His Grace in Baptism, would help them find their way to Him before they died.
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My son, who was baptized Catholic, but who now considers himself Muslim, married a Muslim girl and they have two children, a 7 year old boy, and a 4 year old girl. We all live together. When the children were infants I took a moment with each of them, asked for God’s help, and then sprinkled water on them and prayed, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I claim you for Jesus Christ, our Lord. May you know that you are His, that you have always been His, and may His Grace lead you home to Him someday, somehow.”

Your grandmother’s theory was my theory as well. I have no thoughts or knowledge on the validity / legitimacy of my act in terms of actual Canon Law. I gave them the only baptism that was possible. When they are older, if they ask, I will tell them. I imagine if that day actually comes–if Christ performs another miracle, as He has already performed many in my life–I would direct them to a priest, to RCIA, and to a true baptism into the Church.

All I can do is keep praying for them.
 
This reminds me of an Archie Bunker episode I saw the other day where his agnostic daughter and son-in-law wouldn’t baptize their child so Archie secretly took him down to his church and baptized him himself. Needless to say, the parents weren’t happy when they found out.

I understand that it’s wrong and illicit to baptize a child against the parents will - after all it is the faith of the parents that substitutes for the faith of the catechumen. I understand that it could cause disunity and discord in the family. But that the baptism would still be valid assuming correct matter (water), form (“I baptize thee in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”), and intent (remission of original sin/personal sin; entrance into the Church), this teaching of the Church is the hardest for me to accept. I mean, my sister and cousins are agnostic or non-practicing. I don’t want any kids they’d have to go to Hell for all eternity.

I guess we just have to be obedient even if we don’t understand why.
 
Irishgal49 said:
I do NOT agree. If my ex-husband kidnaps your child and dunks him/her in a Mikvah and she/he is now Jewish how would you feel? That is WRONG
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I wasn’t agreeing with what was done, and I agree with you that it was wrong. However, as to the question of validity, if baptism is done with water, using the Trinitarian formula, and with the intent actually to baptism, it is in fact valid, regardless of whether you or I agree with the circumstances surrounding the baptism.
 
I do NOT believe you have the right to do that without the parent’s consent. I have 3 unbaptized granddaughters so I’m not talking off the cuff here.

Lorrie
 
Irishgal49 said:
I do NOT believe you have the right to do that without the parent’s consent. I have 3 unbaptized granddaughters so I’m not talking off the cuff here.

Lorrie
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I agree that you do not have “the right” to do it without the parents’ consent. However, that is a matter of licity, not of validity. Again, if the baptism is done with water, in the Trinitarian name, and with the intent actually to baptize, the baptism is in fact valid, even if done without the consent of the parents, even if done by a layperson, even if done in the bathtub or sink, even if you or I do not approve, etc., etc.
 
First: the one arranging for the baptism (here the Grandmother) assumes the responsibility to raise the children Catholic. If she cannot do this, she should not baptize them or bring them for baptism.

If she baptized them herself–that is, she poured the water and invoked the Trinity, it was likely illicit (at the very least), since there was no danger of death and a priest could be arranged to do it. If it was done by a priest, it should be recorded in that parish. And he should have asked some questions to assure the parents knew and agreed, or she could assure they were raised Catholic.

It’s because of cases like this that the Church insists the parents be informed and consent to baptism.

Given the situation, she should tell the parents what she did, and get the records straightened out one way or another. They need to consult the pastor about what is needed–either it’s recorded somewhere (and that becomes their parish of baptism), or it will need to be recorded now, with or without a conditional baptism, but certainly to “supply the ceremony”.
 
Irishgal49 said:
Unbaptized children do NOT go to hell
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I agree: at worse, we leave them up to God’s mercy. If there is no fault of their own, we believe that God will not condemn them just for being unbaptized. However, not opening the way for grace to touch their lives, not forming them in Christian moral life, and so on–that surely does not help them grow as Christians, and makes it harder for them to find the way to God. On the other hand, just the sacrament of baptism, without other formation and sacraments, will likely not be all that effective either.
RyanBlack said:
I agree that you do not have “the right” to do it without the parents’ consent. However, that is a matter of licity, not of validity. Again, if the baptism is done with water, in the Trinitarian name, and with the intent actually to baptize, the baptism is in fact valid, even if done without the consent of the parents, even if done by a layperson, even if done in the bathtub or sink, even if you or I do not approve, etc., etc.
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In fact the person baptizing need not even be baptized him- or her-self–as long as they intend to do what the Church does.
 
bmonk said:
I agree: at worse, we leave them up to God’s mercy. If there is no fault of their own, we believe that God will not condemn them just for being unbaptized. However, not opening the way for grace to touch their lives, not forming them in Christian moral life, and so on–that surely does not help them grow as Christians, and makes it harder for them to find the way to God. On the other hand, just the sacrament of baptism, without other formation and sacraments, will likely not be all that effective either.
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Hmmm… I wonder… I was baptized Catholic at 7 days old…and right after my first communion my parents split…and left the church. I also left…but never felt whole…after I got married…I searched for God for 20+ years in Protestant churches…and still never felt at home. Once my husband and I decided to return to the Church…from the moment I stepped in…I felt at home…can’t explain it really…🤷
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
Hmmm… I wonder… I was baptized Catholic at 7 days old…and right after my first communion my parents split…and left the church. I also left…but never felt whole…after I got married…I searched for God for 20+ years in Protestant churches…and still never felt at home. Once my husband and I decided to return to the Church…from the moment I stepped in…I felt at home…can’t explain it really…🤷
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I originally was more positive about the need for other supports, that baptism alone is not really effective, but I allowed precisely for such cases as yours. 👍 We really have to say that grace can do amazing things, with or without human help, and that God can, at times, act in miraculous ways.

Still, I’ve always found it much more effective to cooperate with God. 😉
 
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