Grandparent secretly baptizing grandchild

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lil_M
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Lil_M

Guest
My sister’s in-laws are an interesting bunch. I hear more gossip than I want about them but today I heard something that really disturbed me. My sister’s mother-in-law baptized her granddaughter (not my sister’s baby, she was baptized at church normally) and didn’t tell her daughter, though she told my sister.

I don’t know what the exact circumstances or formula that was used so I am not sure if it was remotely valid. Am I correct in thinking that a regular person cannot bless water? Plus this was not an “emergency” situation as the child is perfectly healthy.

The parents are not practicing Catholics, and the grandmother is very mish-mash in her beliefs. She wants to be reincarnated, but occasionally goes to mass. I guess she thought “just in case” she’ll baptize the child so she can go to heaven. She’s obviously very confused.

Since I am the family “expert” on Catholicism :ehh: my sister wanted to know what to do with this rather unwanted knowledge. I said even if it was valid it was inappropriate since it is the parents’ decision, and the grandmother cannot ensure the child will be raised in the faith.

What to do with this situation? :eek:
 
Lil_M said:
My sister’s in-laws are an interesting bunch. I hear more gossip than I want about them but today I heard something that really disturbed me. My sister’s mother-in-law baptized her granddaughter (not my sister’s baby, she was baptized at church normally) and didn’t tell her daughter, though she told my sister.

I don’t know what the exact circumstances or formula that was used so I am not sure if it was remotely valid. Am I correct in thinking that a regular person cannot bless water? Plus this was not an “emergency” situation as the child is perfectly healthy.

The parents are not practicing Catholics, and the grandmother is very mish-mash in her beliefs. She wants to be reincarnated, but occasionally goes to mass. I guess she thought “just in case” she’ll baptize the child so she can go to heaven. She’s obviously very confused.

Since I am the family “expert” on Catholicism :ehh: my sister wanted to know what to do with this rather unwanted knowledge. I said even if it was valid it was inappropriate since it is the parents’ decision, and the grandmother cannot ensure the child will be raised in the faith.

What to do with this situation? :eek:
Click to expand...
It was probably valid. The water doesn’t have to be blessed. As long as the grandmother said “I baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” while pouring water on the babies head, it was valid.

I have a friend who baptized his granddaughter for the same reason you mentioned. His kids are not practicing Catholics and he wanted the baby baptized.

According to St. Thomas, it is a sin for someone to baptize another person’s children without the permission of the parents, but obviously permission is not necessary for validity.

I’m not really sure what you can or should do at this time. One big problems is that the parents are not practicing Catholics. If they were, they could just have the child conditionally rebaptized and that would be the end of it.

I don’t think you have any obligation at this point. The parents are not practicing Catholics and if the Baptism was valid, it is over and done with.

On the otherhand, maybe you can use this as a way to bring the parents back into the Church? I would probably try that if I were in your shoes.
 
The ordinary ministers of baptism are a priest or a deacon or even a bishop. However, only in cases of emergency, may anyone baptize a child.

This baptism is not recorded anywhere and therefore the child would have a problem if later in life, he wishes to have a record of it or wishes to receive other sacraments. More than likely he would have to get a conditional baptism done within the church.

The thing is…baptism is not a magic bullet that guarantees salvation. Salvation is offered to all of us…Jesus died for everyone, not just baptized Christians. However, Baptism is the sacrament of initiation and in order to not lose our inheritance of heaven…we have to live our faith in all ways. In deed and in faith.
That’s why parents and godparents have to be involved because they make a vow in the presence of the priest who acts as the presence of Jesus…to raise the child Catholic in all ways! Not just with the pouring of water over the child and using the Trinitarian formula. Here is a link with many articles about baptism. It is a start.
americancatholic.org/features/Sacraments/Baptism.asp
Pray for your family!
 
stbruno said:
The ordinary ministers of baptism are a priest or a deacon or even a bishop. However, only in cases of emergency, may anyone baptize a child.
Click to expand...
You would think, but that’s not the case according to my priest. We have had this discussion. Anyone can baptise validly (according to my priest) as long as the correct formula is used, and the baptiser understands the formula. For example, although mormons use the same words, it is not valid as they do not believe in the Holy Trinity as Christians do.
stbruno said:
This baptism is not recorded anywhere and therefore the child would have a problem if later in life, he wishes to have a record of it or wishes to receive other sacraments. More than likely he would have to get a conditional baptism done within the church.
Click to expand...
It’s recorded in heaven. That’s the only place that matters. A conditional baptism isn’t a big deal. Dying unbaptised may be a big deal.
Pax_et_Caritas said:
According to St. Thomas, it is a sin for someone to baptize another person’s children without the permission of the parents, but obviously permission is not necessary for validity.
Click to expand...
I did not realize that baptising someone could be a sin. That’s hard for me to believe, even if the parents did not give consent.

I have considered baptising my grandchild (parents are not Catholic and do not attend anywhere). But I cannot bring myself to do it.
 
Lil_M said:
My sister’s in-laws are an interesting bunch. I hear more gossip than I want about them but today I heard something that really disturbed me. My sister’s mother-in-law baptized her granddaughter (not my sister’s baby, she was baptized at church normally) and didn’t tell her daughter, though she told my sister.

I don’t know what the exact circumstances or formula that was used so I am not sure if it was remotely valid. Am I correct in thinking that a regular person cannot bless water? Plus this was not an “emergency” situation as the child is perfectly healthy.

The parents are not practicing Catholics, and the grandmother is very mish-mash in her beliefs. She wants to be reincarnated, but occasionally goes to mass. I guess she thought “just in case” she’ll baptize the child so she can go to heaven. She’s obviously very confused.

Since I am the family “expert” on Catholicism :ehh: my sister wanted to know what to do with this rather unwanted knowledge. I said even if it was valid it was inappropriate since it is the parents’ decision, and the grandmother cannot ensure the child will be raised in the faith.

What to do with this situation? :eek:
Click to expand...
In spite of all she could have very well Baptized the child. She needs to be informed that Canon Law requires that if a person Baptizes another outside of the Rite of Baptism. That the person notify the nearest where the Baptism took place so that it may be recorded in the Baptismal register. If she really intended to Baptize the child she is required to follow through with the notification. If thought to be valid by the pastor the additional Rites of Baptism will be supplied by the parish church.
 
Lil_M said:
My sister’s in-laws are an interesting bunch. I hear more gossip than I want about them but today I heard something that really disturbed me. My sister’s mother-in-law baptized her granddaughter (not my sister’s baby, she was baptized at church normally) and didn’t tell her daughter, though she told my sister.

I don’t know what the exact circumstances or formula that was used so I am not sure if it was remotely valid. Am I correct in thinking that a regular person cannot bless water? Plus this was not an “emergency” situation as the child is perfectly healthy.

The parents are not practicing Catholics, and the grandmother is very mish-mash in her beliefs. She wants to be reincarnated, but occasionally goes to mass. I guess she thought “just in case” she’ll baptize the child so she can go to heaven. She’s obviously very confused.

Since I am the family “expert” on Catholicism :ehh: my sister wanted to know what to do with this rather unwanted knowledge. I said even if it was valid it was inappropriate since it is the parents’ decision, and the grandmother cannot ensure the child will be raised in the faith.

What to do with this situation? :eek:
Click to expand...
Canon Law states:

Can. 853 Apart from a case of necessity, the water to be used in conferring baptism must be blessed according to the prescripts of the liturgical books.

Can. 860 §1. Apart from a case of necessity, baptism is not to be conferred in private houses, unless the local ordinary has permitted it for a grave cause.

*Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:

1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;

2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.

§2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.*

All of the above wouldlend me to believe that the baptism was not valid.
 
Beyrak said:
You would think, but that’s not the case according to my priest. We have had this discussion. Anyone can baptise validly (according to my priest) as long as the correct formula is used, and the baptiser understands the formula. For example, although mormons use the same words, it is not valid as they do not believe in the Holy Trinity as Christians do.

It’s recorded in heaven. That’s the only place that matters. A conditional baptism isn’t a big deal. Dying unbaptised may be a big deal.

I did not realize that baptising someone could be a sin. That’s hard for me to believe, even if the parents did not give consent.

I have considered baptising my grandchild (parents are not Catholic and do not attend anywhere). But I cannot bring myself to do it.
Click to expand...
Please don’t. The parents are the ones who answer to God for how they’ve raised their child, not you. It’s not for you to interfere or impose your faith upon them this way. Is is likely to make them raise the child Catholic? Is it likely to bring them back to the Church? Quite the opposite, if anything. Without either of those occuring the baptism itself is likely to be of negligible value.

Just put yourself in their shoes - how would you like a child of yours being initiated into the Hindu or Muslim faith behind your back and without your consent?
 
TarlsQtr said:
Canon Law states:

Can. 853 Apart from a case of necessity, the water to be used in conferring baptism must be blessed according to the prescripts of the liturgical books.

Can. 860 §1. Apart from a case of necessity, baptism is not to be conferred in private houses, unless the local ordinary has permitted it for a grave cause.

*Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:

1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;

2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.

§2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.*

All of the above wouldlend me to believe that the baptism was not valid.
Click to expand...
It’s illicit, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s invalid.
 
LilyM said:
Please don’t. The parents are the ones who answer to God for how they’ve raised their child, not you. It’s not for you to interfere or impose your faith upon them this way. Is is likely to make them raise the child Catholic? Is it likely to bring them back to the Church? Quite the opposite, if anything. Without either of those occuring the baptism itself is likely to be of negligible value.

Just put yourself in their shoes - how would you like a child of yours being initiated into the Hindu or Muslim faith behind your back and without your consent?
Click to expand...
Well, Catholicism isn’t Hindu or Muslim, but I agree and as I said, I haven’t nor shall I.

And after reading the actual canon law posted before your post, I don’t think a lot of these baptisms may be valid anyway. I now disagree with a segment on CA’s radio show a month or so ago, when a father admitted baptising his children in his bath tub. He was told it was valid. But according to the canon law posted, this is iffy at best. Even if it was his own children being baptised behind his ex-wife’s back.
 
LilyM said:
It’s illicit, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s invalid.
Click to expand...
According to the canon standards, I would think all the baptisms peformed by protestants, although accepted by the RCC are illicit, but obviously are valid.

So if my daughter consents and one set of grandparents who provide lots of day care vows to raise the child catholic as much as they can, would the Church baptise this infant? The only Catholic in the family is me, the grandfather but the grandmother is converting.
 
Beyrak said:
According to the canon standards, I would think all the baptisms peformed by protestants, although accepted by the RCC are illicit, but obviously are valid.

So if my daughter consents and one set of grandparents who provide lots of day care vows to raise the child catholic as much as they can, would the Church baptise this infant? The only Catholic in the family is me, the grandfather but the grandmother is converting.
Click to expand...
Of course, if the child is not already Baptized like the original posted posted. The Church will not re-Baptize the child. They will either Conditionally Baptize if there is some reason to doubt the validlty or simply supply the additional Baptismal Rites.
 
Beyrak said:
Well, Catholicism isn’t Hindu or Muslim, but I agree and as I said, I haven’t nor shall I.

And after reading the actual canon law posted before your post, I don’t think a lot of these baptisms may be valid anyway. I now disagree with a segment on CA’s radio show a month or so ago, when a father admitted baptising his children in his bath tub. He was told it was valid. But according to the canon law posted, this is iffy at best. Even if it was his own children being baptised behind his ex-wife’s back.
Click to expand...
Any Baptism performed with the proper Form, Matter and Intent would be assumed valid, unless shown specifically to be invalid for some reason.
 
"Pax et Caritas:
According to St. Thomas, it is a sin for someone to baptize another person’s children without the permission of the parents, but obviously permission is not necessary for validity.
Click to expand...
Beyrak said:
I did not realize that baptising someone could be a sin. That’s hard for me to believe, even if the parents did not give consent.

I have considered baptising my grandchild (parents are not Catholic and do not attend anywhere). But I cannot bring myself to do it.
Click to expand...
I know what you mean. I was surprise when I read it. But that’s what he teaches in the Summa, and he goes into a lot of detail explaining why.

The exception is if the child is in danger of death, in which case it should be baptized right away, even if the parents do not consent.
 
Beyrak said:
According to the canon standards, I would think all the baptisms peformed by protestants, although accepted by the RCC are illicit, but obviously are valid.

So if my daughter consents and one set of grandparents who provide lots of day care vows to raise the child catholic as much as they can, would the Church baptise this infant? The only Catholic in the family is me, the grandfather but the grandmother is converting.
Click to expand...
The canon were dealing with licit baptism, not a valid baptism. Licit means legal (according to Church law), it doesn’t refer to validity. The validity of a sacrament is not dependent upon it being licit.
 
Beyrak said:
And after reading the actual canon law posted before your post, I don’t think a lot of these baptisms may be valid anyway. I now disagree with a segment on CA’s radio show a month or so ago, when a father admitted baptising his children in his bath tub. He was told it was valid. But according to the canon law posted, this is iffy at best. Even if it was his own children being baptised behind his ex-wife’s back.
Click to expand...
The canons were dealing with a licit baptism, not a valid baptism. Licit means legal (according to Church law), it doesn’t refer to validity. The validity of a sacrament is not dependent upon it being licit.
 
TarlsQtr said:
Canon Law states:

Can. 853 Apart from a case of necessity, the water to be used in conferring baptism must be blessed according to the prescripts of the liturgical books.

Can. 860 §1. Apart from a case of necessity, baptism is not to be conferred in private houses, unless the local ordinary has permitted it for a grave cause.

*Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:

1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;

2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.

§2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.*

All of the above wouldlend me to believe that the baptism was not valid.
Click to expand...
The baptism is valid but not licit. If a person comes to a Catholic church wishing to be received into the church, a very important distinction must be made. Namely, were they never baptized (and as such would become catechumens) or are they validly baptized (and become candidates)?

The rules for baptism are extraordinarily simple. Baptized with the Trinitarian formula with the intent to baptize. Form and intent are thus present.

What would make the baptism INVALID would have to be a bit more extreme. For example, baptisms done in some protestant circles are invalid as they change the Trinitarian Formula (defect in form). A prime example of this is baptizing “In the name of the Creator, the Redeemer and the Sanctifier”

The father who baptized his children in the bathtub was told correctly, the baptism was valid. There are no “if’s” about it.

While St. Thomas may say it is a sin to baptize a child against parent’s will (please cite that, I’m unfamiliar with it and it simply sounds questionable). Our catechism (as cited above) places the obligation to baptize a child in danger of death even if it is against the wishes of the parent.

Now, many of you are opposed to baptizing children without the consent of parents. Let’s evaluate that for a moment.

I’d like to remind all of my dear Catholic brethren that Baptism, as established in our Catechism, is necessary for salvation. Whether the parents are consenting or not is a non-issue, really. You aren’t baptizing for the parents, you are baptizing the child to bring them into the Christian family (even if your local parish required a conditional baptism afterward).
 
why do so many women on this board air there dirty laundry?

Alot of the women on this forum love to gossip. Gossip is a Sin.

Im not saying im mr perfect overhere, i mean hardly. but seriously , do we have to turn these boards into some soap opera?

If I was your Husband , I would restrict your time on the forums if you were posting things such as this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top