Grape juice instead of wine

[Leon_Bloy]

My understanding is that it must be actual wine - i.e. with alcohol in it (even if it’s just what they call “mustum”). I have read a lot about this!

See this:
wdtprs.com/blog/2011/03/quaeritur-what-sort-of-wine-is-valid-for-mass/

But - maybe your priest, like others said here, is just using the words “grape juice” as a shorthand for some reason. Like you said, distributing the cup is optional at mass, so they could just not do that, and have no worries. The priest only has to have a little bit in his chalice for the mass to be valid. If he does not use the proper matter (i.e. wine that meets the Church’s requirements), then the sacrament would not be valid.

 

[dshix]

If you ask me, he’s more liable to concern people with invalidity by saying “grape juice” then by saying “mustum.” If he says mustum people will at least not feel weird asking, but when you say that you are using grape juice for the mass all the orthodox Catholics freak out.

 

[Zekariya]

But - maybe your priest, like others said here, is just using the words “grape juice” as a shorthand for some reason. Like you said, distributing the cup is optional at mass, so they could just not do that, and have no worries. The priest only has to have a little bit in his chalice for the mass to be valid. If he does not use the proper matter (i.e. wine that meets the Church’s requirements), then the sacrament would not be valid.

She found out that the priest is using mustum. See this:

Hallelujah! It’s mustum! :extrahappy:

Saw the priest last night & asked. As was suggested, he used the term “grape juice” because most people don’t know what mustum is.

Thanks for the encouragement!

 

[Leon_Bloy]

She found out that the priest is using mustum. See this:

Whoops - that’s what happens when I read through the posts too quickly. Thanks.

 

[Zekariya]

Whoops - that’s what happens when I read through the posts too quickly. Thanks.

It happens to the best of us.

 

[twopekinguys]

Hallelujah! It’s mustum! :extrahappy:

Saw the priest last night & asked. As was suggested, he used the term “grape juice” because most people don’t know what mustum is.

Thanks for the encouragement!

Wonderful!!!

Another crisis averted!!

I am very happy that you followed through with this, and got to the bottom of things.

 

[Bonnie]

If you ask me, he’s more liable to concern people with invalidity by saying “grape juice” then by saying “mustum.” If he says mustum people will at least not feel weird asking, but when you say that you are using grape juice for the mass all the orthodox Catholics freak out.

I agree. It would also be a good teaching moment.

 

[Gorgias]

If you ask me, he’s more liable to concern people with invalidity by saying “grape juice” then by saying “mustum.” If he says mustum people will at least not feel weird asking, but when you say that you are using grape juice for the mass all the orthodox Catholics freak out.

On the other hand, if the concern is alcoholism in the community, greater scandal might ensue when explaining what ‘mustum’ is.

 

[dshix]

On the other hand, if the concern is alcoholism in the community, greater scandal might ensue when explaining what ‘mustum’ is.

I think everyone should know by know that the Blood of Christ can only be consecrated with alcohol.

 

[Gorgias]

I think everyone should know by know that the Blood of Christ can only be consecrated with alcohol.

‘wine’, not ‘alcohol’.

The OP mentioned that the chalice is offered for distribution to the congregation. If there’s the situation of (widespread?) alcoholism in the community, the scandal isn’t that the priest is consecrating wine, it’s either that some might think that the Church is promoting alcoholism or that an alcoholic might be tempted to “drink without discerning” the Real Presence.

I call your and raise you a :sad_yes:…

 

[dshix]

‘wine’, not ‘alcohol’.

The OP mentioned that the chalice is offered for distribution to the congregation. If there’s the situation of (widespread?) alcoholism in the community, the scandal isn’t that the priest is consecrating wine, it’s either that some might think that the Church is promoting alcoholism or that an alcoholic might be tempted to “drink without discerning” the Real Presence.

I call your and raise you a :sad_yes:…

Splittin’ hairs…

 

[JimG]

Alcoholism on reservations in the US is incredibly rampant so he very well might have.

But in any case, there is no requirement whatever to distribute communion under both species. My own parish offers the cup to communicants only rarely. It’s not necessary.

 

[Gorgias]

Splittin’ hairs…

With the ‘alcohol’ vs ‘wine’ thing? Of course. However, given the way you put it (“everybody knows…”), I just couldn’t resist.

However, the scandal thing, I think, isn’t a matter of splitting hairs – it’s the substance of this whole discussion. You may not be scandalized by the presence of alcohol in the wine placed in the chalice, but I guarantee you, if you were to celebrate Mass at an AA meeting, there would certainly be scandal and temptation afoot! :sad_yes:

 

[Jimmygill88]

It has to be alcoholic. Simple

 

[Gorgias]

It has to be alcoholic. Simple

Well, not so simple, actually. In the CDF’s Circular Letter to all Presidents of the Episcopal Conferences
concerning the use of low-gluten altar breads and mustum as matter for the celebration of the Eucharist (2003), Cdl Ratzinger writes:

Mustum, which is grape juice that is either fresh or preserved by methods that suspend its fermentation without altering its nature (for example, freezing), is valid matter for the celebration of the Eucharist.

…

Attention should be paid to medical advances in the area of celiac disease and alcoholism, and encouragement given to the production of hosts with a minimal amount of gluten and of unaltered mustum.

So, I think I would assert that mustum is ‘wine’ in the sense that fermentation has begun, but yet, does not have significant discernable alcohol content.

See what I mean? Not quite ‘simple.’

 

[JimG]

With the ‘alcohol’ vs ‘wine’ thing? Of course. However, given the way you put it (“everybody knows…”), I just couldn’t resist.

However, the scandal thing, I think, isn’t a matter of splitting hairs – it’s the substance of this whole discussion. You may not be scandalized by the presence of alcohol in the wine placed in the chalice, but I guarantee you, if you were to celebrate Mass at an AA meeting, there would certainly be scandal and temptation afoot! :sad_yes:

I would think that Mass at an AA meeting should never include distribution under both species. The priest is the only one who must receive from the cup. And it sounds like it would be a good idea in the case being discussed as well.