Grasping the meaning of Jesus' death on the cross

[pwlj87]

Sometimes my mind has a problem with grasping the meanig of the Lord dying for us o a cross. Why was such a death necesarry and what is the meaning of the death? Is it that God would do anything for us, or is it more symbolic (instead of shedding lambs, the lamb of god was shed).

I understand that we sin. And that god is not ok with sin. and that there needed to be something that would take our sin away. but the death on a cross… i have hard time grasping

perhaps i havent read as much of the bible as you all but any ideas or philosophy would be appreciated

 

[tonyrey]

Sometimes my mind has a problem with grasping the meanig of the Lord dying for us o a cross. Why was such a death necesarry and what is the meaning of the death? Is it that God would do anything for us, or is it more symbolic (instead of shedding lambs, the lamb of god was shed).

His choice of death to save us - rather than saving Himself - is overwhelming evidence of His love for us. He liberated us from evil by showing us how to overcome it - not by shedding others’ blood but letting ours be shed. It is the only way of ending the vicious spiral of violence and hatred, of wars and vendettas.

I understand that we sin. And that god is not ok with sin. and that there needed to be something that would take our sin away. but the death on a cross… i have hard time grasping

There have been and always will be martyrs because life is a constant struggle between good and evil.

Saints pose a threat to followers of Satan: they expose those who exploit others - and they need to be silenced…

 

[cessnawag]

In a nutshell… God is our father. And like any good father, if we do wrong there has to be consequences. The old testament says that we can sacrifice things (alms giving or animal sacrifice etc). Instead of us sacrificing all the time we can just accept god’s perfect sacrifial gift, once and for all…Jesus.

 

[DeepBlueSea]

I had the problem of grasping the meaning of His death on the cross as well.

However, based on my understanding from the Gospel of John, especially John 14 to John 17, I gather that Jesus’s death means the following to me:

1. Death by crucifixion is an inevitable end for a Teacher like Christ who was teaching the Truth against a hostile environment that was so entrenched in its self-righteous legalistic hypocrisy of Pharisee and Sadducee, as well as under the rule of Roman empire.
2. Jesus had to teach the Truth despite the risk of offending these Pharisee and Sadducee, the risk of being labelled a blasphemer and upsetting the Roman ruler. Nonetheless, He took the risks because He was sent by the Father to teach the Truth and He had the God-given authority to do so.
3. Jesus took the risks because of the following:

(i) He wanted to show us the example of what it is like and what does it take to truly obey the Father’s will.
(ii) He wanted to show us the example of what it is like and what does it take to truly love your friends, which is by laying down His life for them.
(iii) He wanted to show us the example of having courage and fortitude because of His love for the Father and for His friends.

By showing these examples through His actions, He meant to encourage us to do like wise. He also comforts us to be not afraid of following His examples because despite doing all these, at the end of the day, He has defeated the world. So there is nothing for us to be afraid of to follow His examples because we too will defeat the world as He did.

As you can see, our Lord knew that what was coming to Him for carrying out the Father’s will. But He did not back down, nor was He afraid. He carried out the the Father’s will despite all these challenges, despite knowing that the process would be excruciating. But He endured because His love for us and obedience to God are greater than the pain of crucifixion. That is how infinite His love and obedience are so much so that He endured the pain, the shame and the injustice.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

Understand that we all sin through our senses. Christ’s hands and feet were pierced, His head was crowned with thorns, and His entire body was torn to shreds to make up for the sins that we commit with our bodies through our evil choices.

Man is made in the Image and Likeness of God. This simply means that we have an intellect and a will. Since God is Truth, Goodness, and Love itself, the purpose of our intellect is Truth (GOD) and the Purpose of your will is Goodness and Love (GOD). Thus it is that we are made to know, love and serve God with all our heart.

But some hearts are not set on God, but rather on things; making idols out of things, out of people, or even out of self. Sin is the misuse of the intellect and the will. A man is called to give a helping hand, but he may choose or to kill. A man is called to go to church, but he may choose to go get drunk. A man is called to be chaste in mind and body, but may choose to watch pornography and defile his body. etc.

God paid for the sins of the world, past, present and future, by entering time and taking on a body through which He could suffer the consequences of sin; which is death. Thus the crucifixion is a testament to God’s real love for us, because He sacrificed Himself for us, and it helps us to have a contrite heart when we see him hanging on a cross. You see, in order to be forgiven, we must sincerely repent of our sins. It is hard to repent when we have an abstract concept of our Creator. But when we actually see and realize the horror that sin brings into the world, and the price it cost Christ in order to save us, the crucifix helps us to sincerely say we are sorry for hurting God. Thus Christ said:

*"Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” *He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die." John 12:31-33
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
But understand what it means to be a Christian. Jesus said “Unless you pick up your cross daily and follow me, you cannot be my disciple” This simply means that we must embrace the crosses we receive in life as a means for our own sanctification, by carrying the cross, following Christ to be crucified–that is, to die to our selfishness and sacrifice ourselves for the sake of others.

Here is a video that may help you appreciate the sacrifice of Christ. [CLICK FOR VIDEO LINK

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[atheistgirl]

His choice of death to save us - rather than saving Himself - is overwhelming evidence of His love for us.

But He didn’t ‘‘die’’. At any point, did He?

He is described as descending into the dark to minister to the souls there, for three days, and then rose from the dead.

He liberated us from evil by showing us how to overcome it - not by shedding others’ blood but letting ours be shed. It is the only way of ending the vicious spiral of violence and hatred, of wars and vendettas.

So if we were invaded the right thing to do is not defend ourselves, but let our blood be shed

I don’t think even the Catholic Church says as much, because they have the idea of a just war.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

But He didn’t ‘‘die’’. At any point, did He?

Jesus endured indescribable anguish at Gethsemane, horrific torture in the Praetorium and an agonising death on the Cross at Golgotha .

He is described as descending into the dark to minister to the souls there, for three days, and then rose from the dead.

One cannot rise from the dead if one isn’t dead!

So if we were invaded the right thing to do is not defend ourselves, but let our blood be shed.

Non sequitur. Self-defence and the defence of others is morally justified but subject to the principle of choosing the lesser evil. Physical survival is not the sole consideration for any person with integrity.

I don’t think even the Catholic Church says as much, because they have the idea of a just war.

“just” is the key word. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were unjustified atrocities.

 

[atheistgirl]

Jesus endured indescribable anguish at Gethsemane, horrific torture in the Praetorium

So have many others.

People burned alive at the stake after days of torture to extract a confession for example.

I don’t necessarily recommend reading the deaths of those who have suffered at the hands of torturers, up to and including modern times, as it is very unsettling, but I don’t think what one person suffered physically 2000 years ago is by itself worse than what, unfortunately, thousands of innocent people have suffered since, at the hands of religious, political and criminal regimes.

One cannot rise from the dead if one isn’t dead!

Well, yes, which is why I’m not clear where death enters the picture. He went straight from the cross to ministering to those in the dark, then came back to earth.

Non sequitur.

Not based on what you said in the post.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

Jesus endured indescribable anguish at Gethsemane, horrific torture in the Praetorium

The point was that you were (and are) dismissing His sacrifice as insignificant.

One cannot rise from the dead if one isn’t dead!

Well, yes, which is why I’m not clear where death enters the picture. He went straight from the cross to ministering to those in the dark, then came back to earth.

Materialists don’t believe in spiritual reality anyway! If He had returned immediately sceptics would say He didn’t die (as some do anyway). If He hadn’t ministered to those who were dead they would say He neglected them: catch-22…

Non sequitur.

Not based on what you said in the post.

Generalisations are unjustified on the basis of one statement. Almost every statement we make needs qualification…

 

[atheistgirl]

The point was that you were (and are) dismissing His sacrifice as insignificant.

I never said, or implied, that. That could be seen as offensive to Christians, and I try very hard not to be intentionally or unintentionally offensive to anyone.

You made a point about enduring indescribable suffering and horrific torture. MY point was simply that so have thousands since the beginning of time.

Because others too, have suffered appalling torture, in no way detracts from the individual suffering of one person or the other.

catch-22…

Whatever, I’m still confused as to where the ‘‘dying’’ comes in to it, as from what I’ve read, ‘‘death’’ seems to have been no part of the events that happened over those three days.

Three days ministering to those in the darkness, then a triumphant return to earth.

When did the ‘‘death’’ occur.

It’s a genuine question and not meant to offend anyone in the asking of it.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

I never said, or implied, that. That could be seen as offensive to Christians, and I try very hard not to be intentionally or unintentionally offensive to anyone.

I know you are superior to others in that respect (and other respects!) but the comparison of Jesus to others undermines His impact on history.

You made a point about enduring indescribable suffering and horrific torture. MY point was simply that so have thousands since the beginning of time.

Because others too, have suffered appalling torture, in no way detracts from the individual suffering of one person or the other.

You see what I mean!

Whatever, I’m still confused as to where the ‘‘dying’’ comes in to it, as from what I’ve read, ‘‘death’’ seems to have been no part of the events that happened over those three days.

Three days ministering to those in the darkness, then a triumphant return to earth.

When did the ‘‘death’’ occur.

I shall let Jesus answer the question:

“Fear not those who kill the body but those who kill the soul…”

Christians believe He was fully human and fully divine - which is too difficult a task for the Creator of all that exists.

It’s a genuine question and not meant to offend anyone in the asking of it.

Don’t worry about it! You’re a gentle (but firm) atheist…

 

[atheistgirl]

You see what I mean!

Not really.

Perhaps you could help me understand.

I understand that from the Christian perspective, Jesus ‘‘took on’’ the sins of all mankind. In addition, he suffered a horrific death.

I understand that taking on the burden, spiritually, emotionally, of the sins of all mankind, would be indescribable. In fact it’s not something I can understand at all.

I also understand the physical element of the torture.

My comments only related to the comparative physical torture.

Is it that Christians combine both the physical and spiritual/emotional torture and thus elevate Jesus’ suffering above all others?

Is that it?

Sarah x

 

[WillP]

Sometimes my mind has a problem with grasping the meanig of the Lord dying for us o a cross. Why was such a death necesarry and what is the meaning of the death? Is it that God would do anything for us, or is it more symbolic (instead of shedding lambs, the lamb of god was shed).

I understand that we sin. And that god is not ok with sin. and that there needed to be something that would take our sin away. but the death on a cross… i have hard time grasping

perhaps i havent read as much of the bible as you all but any ideas or philosophy would be appreciated

The way I understand it is that after the death of Christ, there were some who came to believe that he rose from the dead. These few believers than begin building a momentum which embellished upon the moral teachings of Christ and drew upon his death and belief in the resserection to establish credability with audiences. At this early point Christianity was principally a sect within Judism. Sometime in about the middle part of the first century,Christianity began to seperate from Judism into a seperate religion, although the Jewish texts were retained and incorporated into Christianity because they provided a traditionalism that the new religion of christianity would not otherwise have. With the spread of these Christian beliefs to the hellenistic world, concepts and beliefs borrowed from pagan mystry religions were added and by late in the first century, Christ’s death had a sacraficial significance and Christ was seen as possessed of some divine element. Splinter sets of belief emerged from this resulting in competing versions of christianity (herisies).Constantine converted to Christianity in the 4th century which gave respectability to the sect and the new religion enjoyed a huge growth to nearly 50 % of the empire… Meanwhile the various splinter groups continued to struggle until Niciene Christianity emerged from the competiting factions, and, this was the version we now know as orthodox Christianity. Under Theodoseious and subsequent rulers, Christianity came full flower, With emipre backing and support, the “church fathers” then developed intellectual backing and philosophical support for the core beliefs of death/ resurrection sacrafice/ foregiveness of sin. From this process, the more exotic rationales and church reasoning came about to justify these concepts. Of course various other embellishments have been added over the centuries (doctrines of infallability, the beliefs concerning Mary and her assumption into heaven for example), but the core concepts of death, resserection, sacrafice forgiveness of sin --all of this was part of the belief system of the victorious faction among the various christianaties which sprang up w/in the Roman empire perhaps as early as the 2nd century.

 

[tonyrey]

Not really.

Perhaps you could help me understand.

I understand that from the Christian perspective, Jesus ‘‘took on’’ the sins of all mankind. In addition, he suffered a horrific death.

I understand that taking on the burden, spiritually, emotionally, of the sins of all mankind, would be indescribable. In fact it’s not something I can understand at all.

I also understand the physical element of the torture.

My comments only related to the comparative physical torture.

Is it that Christians combine both the physical and spiritual/emotional torture and thus elevate Jesus’ suffering above all others?

Is that it?

No! With apologies.

The bloodstained history of mankind demonstrates that for thousands of years we have been trapped in a vortex of evil that we cannot control. Jesus came to liberate us by sharing the power of His love with us and show us how it is greater than any other force in the world because it is not destroyed by hatred, torture, violence, persecution or death. Its effects endure long after evildoers are dead and buried. It is better to die rather than live as a slave to anything or anyone. The worst slavery is to oneself which is the main cause of all the unnecessary suffering in the world and evident in the pernicious lust for power over others.

 

[pwlj87]

i am still having a hard time understanding the point of the death on a cross.

I understand that Jesus came as both god and man, divine and in human form, without sin, and without wrong doing. I understand he taught about the Kingdom, how to live, the new law, etc.

What I dont understand is why he had to die. It seems so insignificant to everything else. I sort of get the argument that it was to show that god loves us so much so to do for us, but even that I dont understand fully. Or the argument, that sin leads to death, and so him being perfect him dying means that his death replaces us. Even this I dont understand fully.

more on this would help

 

[DeepBlueSea]

Self-defence and the defence of others is morally justified but subject to the principle of choosing the lesser evil. Physical survival is not the sole consideration for any person with integrity.

No! With apologies.

Jesus came to liberate us by sharing the power of His love with us and show us how it is greater than any other force in the world because it is not destroyed by hatred, torture, violence, persecution or death. Its effects endure long after evildoers are dead and buried. It is better to die rather than live as a slave to anything or anyone. The worst slavery is to oneself which is the main cause of all the unnecessary suffering in the world and evident in the pernicious lust for power over others.

Well summarized!

 

[DeepBlueSea]

I understand that from the Christian perspective, Jesus ‘‘took on’’ the sins of all mankind. In addition, he suffered a horrific death.

I understand that taking on the burden, spiritually, emotionally, of the sins of all mankind, would be indescribable. In fact it’s not something I can understand at all.

I don’t think He “took on” the sins as if the sins and the corresponding punishments are transferable. I think it is more like He was demonstrating to us to what extent we should commit to overcome sins even if it means one has to suffer great pain and anguish and how to remain calm yet resolute and not fearful while facing such pain and anguish. Not to mention that He was and is sinless.

Even while facing imminent pain and He acknowledged that His heart was troubled but He did not let His troubled heart overcome His resolution to obey God’s will. Instead, He turned around and comforted His disciples with assuring words, giving them peace of mind. Now, how many people can top that?

I also understand the physical element of the torture.

My comments only related to the comparative physical torture.

Is it that Christians combine both the physical and spiritual/emotional torture and thus elevate Jesus’ suffering above all others?

Is that it?

Well, I understand that before Jesus there were Jewish martyrs as portrayed in the Books of Maccabees. But Jesus’ martyrdom is greatest and most sacred probably because (i) He is God (ii) He is sinless (iii) He contributed greatly to the medical & educational well-being of the Jews during His time through His works of healing and teaching. He also fed a lot of people. And the sacrifice of such a great asset and contributing force to the the society is what makes His unjust death resonates in people’s conscience throughout generations. His deeds continue to inspire Saints to endure suffering for the sake of Truth and Love.

So, I don’t think His suffering was elevated above all on the basis of comparative physical torture, and that basis seems ill to me because it gives a sadistic notion.

 

[atheistgirl]

No! With apologies.

Please don’t apologize. I’m trying to understand and if I’m wrong, I’m wrong.

It is better to die rather than live as a slave to anything or anyone.

Except presumably to live as a slave to your Deity (and for others of different faith their Deity). And death in that case is welcome, as it’s the gateway to eternal life?

The worst slavery is to oneself which is the main cause of all the unnecessary suffering in the world and evident in the pernicious lust for power over others.

What do you have in mind here.

The whole of the society we live in is based on ‘‘power’’ relationships of one kind or another.

The Church has power over people.

The Law has power over people.

People on the whole prefer to live in a democracy, where some are elevated to power and others willingly subject themselves to power.

Business owners have power over people.

Workers unions have power over people.

I don’t see this as inflicting ‘‘unnecessary suffering’’ over others, so I’m confused about the point you’re making.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

Well summarized!

Thank you - and a warm welcome to the forum.

 

[fred_conty]

Sometimes my mind has a problem with grasping the meanig of the Lord dying for us o a cross. Why was such a death necesarry and what is the meaning of the death? Is it that God would do anything for us, or is it more symbolic (instead of shedding lambs, the lamb of god was shed).

I understand that we sin. And that god is not ok with sin. and that there needed to be something that would take our sin away. but the death on a cross… i have hard time grasping

perhaps i havent read as much of the bible as you all but any ideas or philosophy would be appreciated

The following is an extract from Crossing the Threshold of Hope by His Holiness, Pope John Paul II:

God is always on the side of the suffering. His omnipotence is manifested precisely in the fact that He freely accepted suffering. He could have chosen not to do so. He could have chosen to demonstrate His omnipotence even at the moment of the Crucifixion. In fact, it was proposed to Him: “Let the Messiah, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross that we may see and believe” (Mk 15:32). But He did not accept that challenge. The fact that He stayed on the Cross until the end, the fact that on the Cross He could say, as do all who suffer: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mk 15:34), has remained in human history the strongest argument. If the agony on the Cross had not happened, the truth that God is Love would have been unfounded. Yes! God is Love and precisely for this He gave His Son, to reveal Himself completely as Love. Christ is the One who “loved to the end” (Jn 13:1). “To the end” means to the last breath. “To the end” means accepting all the consequences of man’s sin, taking it upon Himself. This happened exactly as prophet Isaiah affirmed: “It was our infirmities that he bore, /We had all gone astray like sheep, / each following his own way; / But the Lord laid upon him / the guilt of us all” (Is 53:4-6).

We have lost paradise thru sin. John Paul II is saying that Christ accepted “all the consequences of man’s sin, taking it upon Himself.” So that we could again have paradise.

He also says “if the agony on the Cross had not happened the truth that God is Love would have been unfounded.” So by his complete love on the cross and death, that love gave us union with him and the promise of his eternal love in eternity.

“… heirs of God and coheirs with Christ, sharing his sufferings so as to share his glory.”
Romans 8:17