Grave Matter

[Penitus]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

Yet, I’ve heard people argue about what this means, i.e. if you steal bread because you’re starving, it isn’t really grave matter. I’m curious as to the thoughts of the members here.

For example, stealing music online. Let’s say I hear a song on the radio I really like. I go home, and think about downloading it. I stop myself and say, “oh, wait, this is morally wrong.” but then I decide to download it anyway. If this was grave matter, it would constitute mortal sin. Would I then be forbidden to take communion?

Also, what about times in the Catechism when it talks about gravity being lessened, as in cases of drugs and physical addictions? I tend to think of things as grave or not grave. Can something just be a lessened gravity?

 

[Celeste88]

I would not consider stealing music on line to be a mortal sin. It would most likely be a venial sin. Now if you were to steal the last slice of bread from a starving man that in my mind would be a mortal sin.

You have to think of the impact the sin of stealing has.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Celeste88:

I would not consider stealing music on line to be a mortal sin. It would most likely be a venial sin. Now if you were to steal the last slice of bread from a starving man that in my mind would be a mortal sin.

You have to think of the impact the sin of stealing has.

Can you point to where you get this idea? Theft is theft. While stealing to feed oneself or one’s family may be mitagated, theft for pleasure, which is what stealing music would be, is never lessened.

Stealing music online is the same as going into a music store and pocketing a music CD. It is a mortal sin.

 

[Penitus]

Okay, what do you fine folks think about in cases of addictions?

Another hypothetical question, too:
Let’s say for example, I find a song, game, or computer program that is out of print. You can no longer go out and buy the object. Is this still stealing?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Penitus:

Okay, what do you fine folks think about in cases of addictions?

Another hypothetical question, too:
Let’s say for example, I find a song, game, or computer program that is out of print. You can no longer go out and buy the object. Is this still stealing?

In all cases, even the one I gave of stealing to feel oneself or one’s family, the matter would still be grave.

For a sin to be mortal three conditions need to be met.

1. matter must be grave
2. must be committed with full knowledge
3. must be committed with deliberate consent

So someone suffering from an addiction could be missing #3.

As for your new example. Yes, if it is still under copyright and you steal it, it is theft. Let me stretch your example. My neighbor has a 1967 Mustang. I like it and can not find it anywhere to buy it. Can I take it?

 

[Penitus]

No, but music and such can be copied. Cars cannot.
I’m not being difficult, just curious and playing devil’s advocate.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Penitus:

No, but music and such can be copied. Cars cannot.
I’m not being difficult, just curious and playing devil’s advocate.

Yes music can be copied, but not legally.

Maybe your agrument is with copyright laws and not with what the Church teaches. It is illegal to steal music. It is theft.

Now some music, like you bring up, that you can not buy might not be under copyright any longer so copying it is fine.

And not to be difficult myself, it seems you know the answers but are looking for a way around it.

 

[Penitus]

ByzCath:

And not to be difficult myself, it seems you know the answers but are looking for a way around it.

So very true.
What about recording shows off of TV via VCR? For example, I received a DVD recorder from my father for Christmas. I have been recording some things from EWTN such as The Journey Home, Swear to God, and other shows I’ve come to enjoy. For me, they’re a valuable reference for my faith. Am I sin for doing this?

 

[utica]

It depends.

Copying a show off the TV and then using it for your own enjoyment may fall under the fair use rules of copyright law.

This is very different from copying a music file.

Here’s a link to the US copyright office.

Once again, though, just because a music file is infinitely copyable, does not mean that it is not stealing if you download it. The power to grant you the right to download it rests with the author.

 

[Penitus]

Right. I actually quit downloading music a few months, destroying burned CDs and deleting mp3s.

 

[Celeste88]

In all my years of Catholic schooling- stealing -especially something small and of little value was never taught to be a mortal sin. Can you show me where in the Catechism it says that it is a MORTAL sin? Does not the Church differenciate between the sin of robbing a bank and the sin of stealing an apple from the grocery store?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Penitus:

So very true.
What about recording shows off of TV via VCR?

This has been dealt with. When the VCR first came out the production companies sued in Federal Court saying that the use of a VCR was a copyright infringment. They lost. As long as you use a VCR for private use and do not sell what you record you are not breaking the law.

For example, I received a DVD recorder from my father for Christmas. I have been recording some things from EWTN such as The Journey Home, Swear to God, and other shows I’ve come to enjoy. For me, they’re a valuable reference for my faith. Am I sin for doing this?

Again, this is the same as the VCR.

Same goes for making copies of music from what you already own. What is wrong is when you make copies from something you do not own.

Now you are hunting for loop holes. You are intentionally looking for ways to slip by. Stealing is stealing no matter how you try to rationalize it.

 

[Penitus]

Celeste88:

In all my years of Catholic schooling- stealing -especially something small and of little value was never taught to be a mortal sin. Can you show me where in the Catechism it says that it is a MORTAL sin? Does not the Church differenciate between the sin of robbing a bank and the sin of stealing an apple from the grocery store?

Look again:
Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

So essentially, the church teaches that robbing a bank is a worse kind of stealing than stealing an apple from the grocery store, but that both are still stealing. If you look at the 3 criteria for mortal sin, it all comes down to this: If you realize you’re sinning and don’t stop, it’s mortal. Hence, you cannot receive the Eucharist.

 

[Penitus]

ByzCath:

As long as you use a VCR for private use and do not sell what you record you are not breaking the law.

Which I am not. I’m copying things from cable TV, not things I have borrowed from others. Everything I record off of TV is for my own personal use. I have not copied ANY music or ANYTHING that I do not own. You say that I am trying to find loop holes, when in fact, I am merely trying to earn salvation and am not screwing up along the way. Why so harsh?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Celeste88:

In all my years of Catholic schooling- stealing -especially something small and of little value was never taught to be a mortal sin. Can you show me where in the Catechism it says that it is a MORTAL sin? Does not the Church differenciate between the sin of robbing a bank and the sin of stealing an apple from the grocery store?

No, stealing is stealing. There is no petty sin and grand sin like there is petty theft and grand theft.

If on looks to the Catechism you will find the followin.

ARTICLE 7
THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not steal.

2401 The seventh commandment forbids unjustly taking or keeping the goods of one’s neighbor and wronging him in any way with respect to his goods. It commands justice and charity in the care of earthly goods and the fruits of men’s labor. For the sake of the common good, it requires respect for the universal destination of goods and respect for the right to private property. Christian life strives to order this world’s goods to God and to fraternal charity.

2450 “You shall not steal” (Ex 20:15; Deut 5:19). “Neither thieves, nor the greedy . . ., nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor 6:10).

Now, the seventh commandment is “You shall not steal.” Not you shall not steal something of a value over (insert dollar amount here).

Then CCC 2450 shows that the Bible teaches that robbers and thieves will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

Now this does say that the gravity of mortal sins do differ, that is murder is graver than theft, but they are all still mortal sins, so does the gravity really matter?

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

Here is layed out what a venial sin is. A venial sin is something that is not prescribed by the moral law, as “You shall not steal” is a part of the moral law, stealing can not be considered a venial sin, unless it is done without full knowledge or consent.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Penitus:

Which I am not. I’m copying things from cable TV, not things I have borrowed from others. Everything I record off of TV is for my own personal use. I have not copied ANY music or ANYTHING that I do not own. You say that I am trying to find loop holes, when in fact, I am merely trying to earn salvation and am not screwing up along the way. Why so harsh?

Sorry about the harshness but it seemed as though you were looking for loop holes by the way you were asking the questions especially with the whole copying music line.

I apologize if I assumed wrong.

 

[Penitus]

ByzCath:

Sorry about the harshness but it seemed as though you were looking for loop holes by the way you were asking the questions especially with the whole copying music line.

I apologize if I assumed wrong.

It’s alright. It was something I struggled with in a recent reversion to Catholocism after 5-6 years of living in sin, but I was able to delete all my mp3s of CD’s I did not own and to toss away my copied ones.

 

[frogman80]

From Catholic Encyclopedia:
newadvent.org/cathen/14564b.htm

The sin of theft is of itself grievous, because it violates the great virtues of justice and charity. St. Paul (1 Corinthians 6:10) enumerates it as one of the transgressions which bars the offender from the kingdom of heaven. Still, as happens with regard to other delinquencies, its guilt may often be venial.

( I posted this just to make sure people don’t confuse “grave” as always meaning “mortal sin” in the CCC! )

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

frogman80:

From Catholic Encyclopedia:
newadvent.org/cathen/14564b.htm

The sin of theft is of itself grievous

, because it violates the great virtues of justice and charity. St. Paul (1 Corinthians 6:10) enumerates it as one of the transgressions which bars the offender from the kingdom of heaven. Still, as happens with regard to other delinquencies, its guilt may often be venial.

( I posted this just to make sure people don’t confuse “grave” as always meaning “mortal sin” in the CCC! )

Yes, as with all mortal sin, if the 3 conditions (1) grave matter, 2) full knowledge, 3) full consent) are not met then it is a venial sin. If those three conditions are met, one of which is always met with theft (it is always grave), then it is a mortal sin.

 

[Superstar905]

Penitus:

You say that I am trying to find loop holes, when in fact, I am merely trying to earn salvation and am not screwing up along the way. Why so harsh?

um…you can’t earn salvation, so I’d stop trying to.