Graven image

[Jonni]

Hi, my uncle is a jahova witness and has pulled me on the first commandment. “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness…” Could anyone explain why we have images and symbols of god. It’s just that I am converting to catholic and don’t have the knowledge to give him a good reply .
Many thanks in advance.

 

[Nita]

God is forbidding them to make graven images to be used as false gods, to be worshipped.

Exodus 20:2-5 "I am the LORD your God, … You shall have* no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them**; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, …

Lev 26:1 "You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the LORD your God.

Deut. 4:23 Take heed to yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make a graven image in the form of anything which the LORD your God has forbidden you. 4:24 For the LORD your God is a devouring fire, **a jealous God. ***Consider what “jealous” means . For example, a wife is “jealous” of her relationship with her husband - her role as spouse. If another woman starts to usurp her place, she gets upset; she gets upset at her husband if he seeks or allows that to happen. God is “jealous” of His relationship with His creatures; He forbids us to let anything usurp His role as our God – as the Israelites did in the wilderness when they formed the golden calf for the purpose of worshipping it (the actual golden statue) as a god.

Catholics have statues to represent Our Lord and the saints, but we do not think the statues are gods. We adore Jesus and acknowledge that He is God; we do not adore a statue of Him - we do not say that the wooden/plaster/marble statue is God, we do not worship and serve a shaped piece of plaster, etc. And of course Catholics never worship Mary, the saints and the angels as God - not as living persons, and not carved statues of them.

God does not forbid images that are not used as idols/false gods. As one example, you can read His instructions for the Ark of the Covenant where He tells them to make 2 angels/cherubim out of gold.

 

[MarcoPolo]

See also the Catholic Answers tract on this topic.

 

[majorem]

Hi, my uncle is a jahova witness and has pulled me on the first commandment. “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness…” Could anyone explain why we have images and symbols of god. It’s just that I am converting to catholic and don’t have the knowledge to give him a good reply .
Many thanks in advance.

 

[majorem]

The answer/response prior to my little contribution is beautiful and ‘right on’…on a more practical (for lack of a better word) note…it was explained to me years ago that …we have pictures of loved ones…we have the crucifix to remind us…stained glass pictures…beautiful statues…how wonderful…PAX
’

 

[Church_Militant]

Hi, my uncle is a jahova witness and has pulled me on the first commandment. “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness…” Could anyone explain why we have images and symbols of god. It’s just that I am converting to catholic and don’t have the knowledge to give him a good reply .
Many thanks in advance.

Sorry to hear this. The JWs are pretty heavily anti-Catholic, though most often they are so far out in left field that they are difficult to even talk with.

That said, I have a blog post on this that might be helpful to you and feel free to use it as needed. Print it and give it to him if you like, but be sure to study it first because it’s a pretty common allegation by some folks.

Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

Welcome to the apologetics front lines my young friend.

You might also want to check out the following CA links.

• Are They Awake on the Watchtower
• Distinctive Beliefs of the Jehovah’s Witnesses
• The God of the Jehovah’s Witnesses
• History of the Jehovah’s Witnesses
• More Stumpers for the Jehovah’s Witnesses
• Strategies of Jehovah’s Witness
• Stumpers for Jehovah’s Witnesses
• Where does Scripture state that Jesus is God?

 

[JerryZ]

Hi, my uncle is a jahova witness and has pulled me on the first commandment. “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness…” Could anyone explain why we have images and symbols of god. It’s just that I am converting to catholic and don’t have the knowledge to give him a good reply .
Many thanks in advance.

Actually the issue of images taken out of context by our protestant brethen is annoying to say the least for it really shows how little they actually know the scriptures.
Also so recurrent it is boring. But alas I digress;

So let’s look at Exodus the same book they take the quote were “images” are forbidden.

Here God is instructing Moses on how to build the Ark of the Covenant:

Exodus:
25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubim of gold; of beaten work shalt thou make them, at the two ends of the mercy-seat.
25:19 And make one cherub at the one end, and one cherub at the other end: of one piece with the mercy-seat shall ye make the cherubim on the two ends thereof.
25:20 And the cherubim shall spread out their wings on high, covering the mercy-seat with their wings, with their faces one to another; toward the mercy-seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.

So God tells Moises to make 2 images in pure gold!

And here we see Solomon building the Temple in Jerusalem:

I Kings:
6:23 And in the oracle he made two cherubim of olive-wood, each ten cubits high.

(4.5 Metres High) Mighty BIG statues eh!

6:24 And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.
6:25 And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubim were of one measure and one form.
6:26 The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub.
6:27 And he set the cherubim within the inner house; and the wings of the cherubim were stretched forth, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.
6:28 And he overlaid the cherubim with gold.
6:29 And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm-trees and open flowers, within and without.

I hope this gives you some clarification on the issue of images!

What God Forbids us to do is to make an image of GOD or a god and give ADORATION to **it ** We can only give adoration to the living GOD.

 

[catholictiger]

Hi, my uncle is a jahova witness and has pulled me on the first commandment. “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness…” Could anyone explain why we have images and symbols of god. It’s just that I am converting to catholic and don’t have the knowledge to give him a good reply .
Many thanks in advance.

ask him this question if we can’t make any graven images why does god order the jews to make the arc of the covenant when that is full of “graven” images?

 

[Jonni]

Many thanks for all your help.
You are right in saying they are set in there ways.
This is his response.
“They did not worship the images god had told then to make it was for decoration and to remind them of the rank in heaven they did not bow down or kiss or pray to the image they made”

Your right about being on the front line. Since I started my journey to convert to catholic from CofE, I have been bombarded with negative things (two were JW)all anti catholic. I try to answer the best I can but I tell them they need to ask people who have the authority and knowledge.

 

[TimothyH]

“They did not worship the images god had told then to make it was for decoration and to remind them of the rank in heaven they did not bow down or kiss or pray to the image they made”

He doesn’t know what he is talking about.

They bowed down before the ark of the covenant and prayed. Yes they did. They all but worshipped it. They stood right in front of it, dropped to their knees, raised their hands and eyes and cried out to God. They prostrated themselves before the ark of the covenant!

They absolutely bowed before it and prayed.

The ark of the covenant was where God appeared to Moses, in the mercy seat. It was the holiest object on the planet. The ark and the temple were the center of the universe, where God dwelled with man. The veneration and respect they gave the ark of the covenant cannot be understated. Today’s Jehovah’s Witnesses would be scandalized to see the way the ark of the covenant, the temple itself, and everything in it was venerated.

Jews still make pilgrimages to the last remaining wall of Solomon’s temple where the ark was, to touch it and to pray before it, believing that in doing so their prayers will go straight to God. It is still the holiest place on the planet for a Jew and every devout Jew longs to stand before the “Wailing wall” and pray. I know a 72 year old Jewish man who cried when he realized that he was finally going to get the opportunity to do that.

Neither the Jews who prayed in the temple before the ark of the covenant nor Catholics today pray "To" images. We pray to God. We pray in the presence of images and bow in front of images, but we do not pray to images.

The guy quoted doesn’t know anything about how the Jews used images in the Old Tesament nor anything about how Catholics pray. He doesn’t know what he is talking about.

-Tim-

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, my uncle is a jahova witness and has pulled me on the first commandment. “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness…” Could anyone explain why we have images and symbols of god. It’s just that I am converting to catholic and don’t have the knowledge to give him a good reply .
Many thanks in advance.

…what most non-Catholics refuse to accept is that the Command is not that we should not make images of things but that we should not make “graven images.” Graven images are images whose sole purpose is idol worship… and we know from Scriptures that to place anything above God is idolatry… so when a person, animal or thing becomes more important to us than God… we are committing idol worship!

The very Jehovah Witnesses that speak so strongly against the Church hold their leaders as “gods” whose words they follow blindly (check the history of the Jehovah Witnesses: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Jehovah’s_Witnesses and catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/whowit.htm )–they preach that Christ is not God but a god or some sort of lesser being than the Father (a belief rooted in Arianism: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism ) and yet they claim that they are God’s visible people… here’s what Scriptures state:

18 Children, this is the final hour; you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, and now many Antichrists have already come; from this we know that it is the final hour. 19 They have gone from among us, but they never really belonged to us; if they had belonged to us, they would have stayed with us. But this was to prove that not one of them belonged to us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and have all received knowledge. 21 I have written to you not because you are ignorant of the truth, but because you are well aware of it, and because no lie can come from the truth. 22 Who is the liar, if not one who claims that Jesus is not the Christ? This is the Antichrist, who denies both the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son cannot have the Father either; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father too. 24 Let what you heard in the beginning remain in you; as long as what you heard in the beginning remains in you, you will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And the promise he made you himself is eternal life. 26 So much have I written to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 But as for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; since the anointing he gave you teaches you everything, and since it is true, not false, remain in him just as he has taught you. 28 Therefore remain in him now, children, so that when he appears we may be fearless, and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is upright you must recognise that everyone whose life is upright is a child of his. (1 St. John 2:18-29)

We are well aware also that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know the One who is true. We are in the One who is true as we are in his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God and this is eternal life. Children, be on your guard against false gods. (1 St. John 5:20)

Scriptures (not sure of the Jehovah Witnesses renderings since their’s is way different from all Christian Bibles) attest to Christ’s Divinity: He is the One True God and knowing this means we have, in Jesus, Eternal Life!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Actually the issue of images taken out of context by our protestant brethen is annoying to say the least for it really shows how little they actually know the scriptures.
Also so recurrent it is boring. But alas I digress;

So let’s look at Exodus the same book they take the quote were “images” are forbidden.

Here God is instructing Moses on how to build the Ark of the Covenant:

Exodus:
25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubim of gold; of beaten work shalt thou make them, at the two ends of the mercy-seat.
25:19 And make one cherub at the one end, and one cherub at the other end: of one piece with the mercy-seat shall ye make the cherubim on the two ends thereof.
25:20 And the cherubim shall spread out their wings on high, covering the mercy-seat with their wings, with their faces one to another; toward the mercy-seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.

So God tells Moises to make 2 images in pure gold!

And here we see Solomon building the Temple in Jerusalem:

I Kings:
6:23 And in the oracle he made two cherubim of olive-wood, each ten cubits high.

(4.5 Metres High) Mighty BIG statues eh!

6:24 And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.
6:25 And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubim were of one measure and one form.
6:26 The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub.
6:27 And he set the cherubim within the inner house; and the wings of the cherubim were stretched forth, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.
6:28 And he overlaid the cherubim with gold.
6:29 And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm-trees and open flowers, within and without.

I hope this gives you some clarification on the issue of images!

What God Forbids us to do is to make an image of GOD or a god and give ADORATION to **it ** We can only give adoration to the living GOD.

…not only that but the courtains have to have a certain construction and images on them; the priests must were certain garments and they must were symbols of the twelve tribes on them… images all around the holy and the holy of holies… wow… Yahweh God must have been confused that day!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

ask him this question if we can’t make any graven images why does god order the jews to make the arc of the covenant when that is full of “graven” images?

…not graven images… simply images… graven images are images for the purpose of worship (idol).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Many thanks for all your help.
You are right in saying they are set in there ways.
This is his response.
“They did not worship the images god had told then to make it was for decoration and to remind them of the rank in heaven they did not bow down or kiss or pray to the image they made”

Your right about being on the front line. Since I started my journey to convert to catholic from CofE, I have been bombarded with negative things (two were JW)all anti catholic. I try to answer the best I can but I tell them they need to ask people who have the authority and knowledge.

…don’t be caught up in their sham… all Catholics have the authority to speak for the Faith… those who have less knowledge should simply state that they do not know but that they will seek the answers (and do so); some cults use “authority” to limit the ability of their members to have and use their God-given minds… the Church Teaches that we are all called to discipleship and apostleship: proclaim our Lord and God, Jesus Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Crescentinus]

Sorry to hear this. The JWs are pretty heavily anti-Catholic, though most often they are so far out in left field that they are difficult to even talk with.

That said, I have a blog post on this that might be helpful to you and feel free to use it as needed. Print it and give it to him if you like, but be sure to study it first because it’s a pretty common allegation by some folks.

Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

Welcome to the apologetics front lines my young friend.

You might also want to check out the following CA links.

• Are They Awake on the Watchtower
• Distinctive Beliefs of the Jehovah’s Witnesses
• The God of the Jehovah’s Witnesses
• History of the Jehovah’s Witnesses
• More Stumpers for the Jehovah’s Witnesses
• Strategies of Jehovah’s Witness
• Stumpers for Jehovah’s Witnesses
• Where does Scripture state that Jesus is God?

Thanks.

 

[catholictiger]

…not graven images… simply images… graven images are images for the purpose of worship (idol).

Maran atha!

Angel

that is why I put graven in qoutes, I think if you ask someone this question who is against statues and images of saints you ask them what about the “graven” images on the arc of the covenant. They would say that isn’t graven, and you ask why.