Graven Images/Idol worship defense?

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AnnoDomini1

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So, what is the best defense against idol worship accusation? I mean, for someone who was raised a Sola Scriptura protestant, it can be really hard to see someone kneeling in front of a statue of Saint Mary to utter a prayer, and they may start calling statues idols and Mariology can be called polytheism. What are the best ways to defend the monotheism in Catholicism? And what are the best ways to show distinction between idols and images venerated in Catholic churches?
Thanks!
 
I don’t know of any Catholic who worships statues or believes that statues can grant any petition. I do know Catholics who believe that any friend of God’s is their friend also. They don’t mind asking anyone on earth or in heaven to pray for them.
 
It may seem to be a bit of a stretch, but look at the monuments protestants (and others) erect at burial sites. We go to the cemetery to feel closer to the one who died, we pray, leave flowers and such. That granite marker is a reminder as is a statue of Christ, Mary, a saint. Humans are visual people and visuals can help us focus on prayer.
 
“Idol worship” suggests that the person is actually venerating the physical statue or picture or whatever.
We do not venerate physical objects. The usual example is, if you have a photograph of your spouse and you kiss it, you’re not in love with the photograph - you’re in love with the person pictured and you’re just using the photograph as a visual reminder of them.

There is no question of “polytheism” because we do not worship Mary or the saints (or statues), we worship God.
 
I think the conversation gets more difficult if the person you are speaking with has witnessed certain customs that go far beyond a tasteful statue in the churchyard.

Even though I was raised Catholic I couldn’t wrap my head around some of the customs I witnessed or separate them from idolatry. So I would think it would be very difficult to try to explain them away to a non Catholic.

Parading life sized statues around, throwing ourselves face down before them and swearing our devotion, crowning them, kissing their feet while in tears, going to visit certain traveling statues, waiting in long lines to get near them, touching a rosary to the statue hoping for some power to transfer. My mother had a statue of the Infant of Prague with an array of extravagant outfits for it to wear throughout the year and various prayers to be said with assurances of particular blessings. Several times growing up there were weeping or bleeding statues that cropped up leading to odd pilgrimages, or a salt stain on a concrete bridge support that drew devout believers.

No matter how hard I tried, I could not understand those things as anything beyond superstition and a bizarre attachment to an image. I accept the Catholic explanation, as I cannot read anyone’s heart and I leave it at that, but it certainly appears to be a situation far beyond the statues being a nice reminder.

It may not be dogma, but I did know Catholics who believed some of those statues either held power or channeled power to heal, grant prayers etc. They were likely in error on that, but when non Catholics run across those people and that behavior, they may mistakenly believe that is how other Catholics believe as well.
 
To be honest my first reaction is to not bother to try to explain to anyone, because if people are the type who accuse Catholics of Mary worship and idol worship (and do not understand/accept that in some cases, like actual voodoo practitioners who claim to be nominally Catholic, the person is engaging in a practice contrary to the teachings of the Church), to me these likely have a closed mind and only God could open it. To me, statues and dressing up the Infant and crowning the Mary statue are just rich symbols of our faith and our overall love of God, as well as being cultural traditions and happy childhood memories.

However, this is an apologetics forum and the OP specifically asked for an apologetics defense, so I posted it.
 
Calliope said:
No matter how hard I tried, I could not understand those things as anything beyond superstition and a bizarre attachment to an image. I accept the Catholic explanation, as I cannot read anyone’s heart and I leave it at that, but it certainly appears to be a situation far beyond the statues being a nice reminder.
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My mother, a former Catholic, left the church many years ago for this same reason. I asked her one day, “Mom, while you were Catholic did you worship Mary?” Her answer was - “of course not”. As one poster above said, I too have not met any ex-Catholic who has worshiped Mary and i often ask.

Please dont let anyone define your worship by your acts or posture. If this were the standard we would all be in trouble. We worship in spirit and truth - Jn 4:24

Peace!!!
 
adf417 said:
My mother, a former Catholic, left the church many years ago for this same reason. I asked her one day, “Mom, while you were Catholic did you worship Mary?” Her answer was - “of course not”. As one poster above said, I too have not met any ex-Catholic who has worshiped Mary and i often ask.
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I wonder if things get lost in translation. I know that for Catholics, worship is the Mass, offered to God only, so no matter what, unless a Mass is offered to anything else, there is no worship taking place. Yet, I’ve heard, read, and experienced Catholics accusing others of “worshipping” something other than God because they seem overly attached to it, or somehow their demeanor or behavior show that they hold a belief, thing or goal as too high a priority.

Is the same understanding of “worship” being used in both these circumstances? It would seem that no one other than a Catholic is truly able to worship anything because they cannot offer the sacrifice of the Mass to it, yet it is commonly understood that people worship all manner of deities, and things.

I have found it confusing that Catholics, be definition, can only worship God and it’s impossible to accidentally worship anything else, yet others are accused of worship all manner of things inappropriately, including accidentally.

I hear Catholics, have even read articles and heard talks by priests, saying that pagans accidentally worship demons when they think they are worshipping (fill in the blank).

Basically it appears that if someone who is not a Catholic, behaves towards something other than God in the manner that some Catholics appear to behave towards Saints, Angels, or statues, they are worshipping that thing.

I think this is why there is confusion on this issue. Because when anyone else does those things, they are seen as worship, but when Catholics do them, they are not worship. People who are not Catholic and don’t understand all the theology are understandably confused by the appearance.

I think it’s likely to be hard to convincingly explain why, when Catholics do those things, they are completely different than when others do, to people who don’t understand or believe Catholic theology. Especially if/when Catholics consider it worship when others engage in those practices.

Essentially, unless you are Catholic, it’s nearly impossible to understand the difference, it’s a matter of faith.
 
I think without a specific example of a priest or Catholic accusing a particular person, pagan etc, of “worshipping” something they shouldn’t, it’s hard to answer this. Also, does the person or pagan agree they are “worshipping” whatever it is, or do they have another explanation for their practice? People cannot “accidentally” worship something. Intent is everything. It is true that when occult forces are involved, people have to be careful of not inadvertently opening some portal to the dark side that is best left closed, even if they didn’t intend to worship. For all these reasons we really need an example.

Also, in general, many Catholics do not concern themselves with the practices of people of other faiths, unless it’s something extreme, like animal sacrifice in the modern age.

The only time I hear Catholics accusing people of “worshipping” something they shouldn’t is when somebody is overly devoted to a material pursuit, such as spending excessive time and money getting the latest designer clothing or the most expensive car or eating in every trendy restaurant. A Catholic might say that such people in their excess (and I do mean excess, there’s nothing inherently bad about a nice outfit, nice meal or even a fancy car if you can afford it) are putting material things ahead of God and in so doing “worshipping” them instead of God.

The other problem is that with billions of Catholics out there, some of them are going to say stuff that others wouldn’t say or would see in a different way. We see this on the forum all day every day. Every topic brings a range of opinions, and there are clearly ranges of opinions even within the clergy.
 
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I am pretty sure that, as Roman Catholics, they believe pagan gods or their images should never even be venerated. The Roman Catholics do venerate the saints but worship God alone.
 
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Calliope said:
I wonder if things get lost in translation. I know that for Catholics, worship is the Mass, offered to God only, so no matter what, unless a Mass is offered to anything else, there is no worship taking place. Yet, I’ve heard, read, and experienced Catholics accusing others of “worshipping” something other than God because they seem overly attached to it, or somehow their demeanor or behavior show that they hold a belief, thing or goal as too high a priority.

Is the same understanding of “worship” being used in both these circumstances? It would seem that no one other than a Catholic is truly able to worship anything because they cannot offer the sacrifice of the Mass to it, yet it is commonly understood that people worship all manner of deities, and things.
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When Catholics accuse others of worshiping something other than what that person says they worship this would be yet another example of bad Catholic practice and the list of these is very long. Please keep in mind there is a clear and definitive measure of the teaching of the church vs the practice of her adherents. This is the biggest difference between Catholic and Protestant “church”.

If you ever hear/see a Catholic stating something that may be wrong, such as accusing someone of worshiping something they may not be, the Catechism would be a useful tool, even for non-Catholics, to use for correction. If more clarification is needed you both go to the church (preist), if more clarification is still needed then you go to the bishop and so on… There is nothing similar to this in the whole of Protestantism.

Peace!!!
 
I start of with, “I see you have pictures of your family on the living room wall. You don’t worship those pictures do you?” We see memorials in probably every city I’m the US, whether they be a war memorial or any other. They probably didn’t have an issue with them. Look at Washington D.C.

I’m Byzantine Catholic and the first Sunday of Lent we celebrate the Sunday of Orthodoxy celebrating the achievements of the 7th Ecumenical Council over the iconoclasts. It is such a wonderful event that I always attend the Pan-Orthodox Sunday of Orthodoxy Vespers the following week to do it al over again.

ZP
 
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AnnoDomini1 said:
And what are the best ways to show distinction between idols and images venerated in Catholic churches?
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I think the best illustration of the distinction between religious statues and idols is probably the Moses’ bronze serpent, which started out as a perfectly acceptable religious statue, even an instrument of God’s mercy and cure for serpent bites (Numbers 21:6-9), until the Israelites made it into an idol by worshipping it as a deity. (2 Kings 18:4)

Another illustration of the distinction between religious statues and idols, objects of similar design, are the perfectly acceptable religious statues of the twelve oxen of bronze under the sea of bronze adjacent to Solomon’s Temple (1 Kings 6:23) and ox or calf of gold that the idolatrous Israelites sinfully made and worshipped as a god in the wilderness in the days of Moses. (Exodus 32; Psalm 106:19-20)

Personally, after reading about the two cherubim of olivewood overlaid with gold, each ten cubits (about 15 feet) high, in the inner sanctuary of Solomon’s Temple (1 Kings 6:23), as well as the other statues and carvings in and around the Temple (1 Kings 6 - 7), I don’t know how anyone can fault Catholics for having religious statues in their churches.

As far as bowing down or kneeling toward religious statues in an acceptable way, remembering all the religious statues and carvings in Solomon’s Temple, consider the inspired words of the psalmist, who said, “I bow down toward thy holy temple…” (Psalm 138:2) Bowing down toward the temple necessarily means also bowing down toward the contents of the temple, such as its statues and carvings.
 
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@AnnoDomini1You should check out Collyridianism. It was a heretical movement that actually viewed Mary as a Goddess. See how the early Church and her leaders rebuked that movement. I hope it helps.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I think without a specific example of a priest or Catholic accusing a particular person, pagan etc, of “worshipping” something they shouldn’t, it’s hard to answer this. Also, does the person or pagan agree they are “worshipping” whatever it is, or do they have another explanation for their practice? People cannot “accidentally” worship something. Intent is everything.
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No disrespect, but I’m not going to comb these forums for examples. If you aren’t familiar with what I am referring to, no harm no foul. On the issue of accidental worship, I agree that worship doesn’t happen by accident, and it’s just as silly to say that about one faith as another. People know what they are directing worship towards.

That being said I do commonly hear people say that pagans who direct worship to various spirits, deities, or objects are actually worshipping demons, they just aren’t aware of it.

Even if someone is directing worship towards something that may not exist, their intention is to worship that thing they are directing their behavior towards. They aren’t worshipping something else by mistake.

Sometimes the explanation is that Satan is tricking them by pretending to be (fill in the blank)so when they worship a star, tree or ocean god, they are actually worshipping Satan in disguise. I have no idea if that has anything to do with Catholic theology or if it’s just an idea that individuals come up with. I have read articles by priests saying as much, but they are individuals with their own opinions too, I understand not everything that a priest says automatically accurately represents Catholic doctrine.
Tis_Bearself said:
A Catholic might say that such people in their excess (and I do mean excess, there’s nothing inherently bad about a nice outfit, nice meal or even a fancy car if you can afford it) are putting material things ahead of God and in so doing “worshipping” them instead of God.
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Yes, so is this a different meaning of the word worship, or do people actually think that the behavior, though not in any way religious, constitutes worship? It’s never been really clear to me. Even while I was Catholic I heard this sort of thing regularly, that some people worship sports because they skip Mass to go to a game, or worship money because they work rather than go to Mass and keep Sunday as the Lord’s day. Is that just another way of saying a person is giving too much priority or misplaced priority, or are Catholics to understand that as being against the First Commandment?

Thanks for your responses. 🌹
 
adf417 said:
If you ever hear/see a Catholic stating something that may be wrong, such as accusing someone of worshiping something they may not be, the Catechism would be a useful tool, even for non-Catholics, to use for correction.
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Thanks, I didn’t realize the Catechism addressed these things.
 
I can explain that. But what about cases where Catholics travel to sites of Marian apparitions, to put a crown on the statue, kiss their feet, parade it around, stand in line to touch a statue? How do I explain that as mere symbolism?
 
I think that in the Catholic view, the only real worship is the worship we offer in the Mass. It is the offering of sacrifice to our Creator, in this case, the eternal offering of the Son, who sacrificed himself for our benefit, to the Father. Singing songs is not worship, prayer is not worship. Offering the once for all eternal sacrifice to the Father is worship.
 
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