Graven Images/Idol worship defense?

[Tis_Bearself]

That being said I do commonly hear people say that pagans who direct worship to various spirits, deities, or objects are actually worshipping demons, they just aren’t aware of it.

First, I have to unequivocally state that it’s wrong to worship any God other than God. So worshipping some other God, let’s just say Baal since that’s in the Scripture, is very wrong, and Catholics in no way condone it.

It’s where these people’s worship goes that Catholics differ on. One school of thought would be that such worship doesn’t go anywhere. Baal doesn’t exist, you’re just talking to yourself. Another school of thought would be it calls up demons. There are other variations on this but the bottom line is, Catholics don’t have to be concerned with it other than saying that worshipping Baal is just wrong to do. Of course it’s extremely wrong to do if you were raised Christian and know about God. The satanic influence would be in leading you away from the true God, of whom you were taught, so you worship some other purported deity.

I am not one to sit around determining whether people who sincerely believe in another faith in which they were raised (in other words, they aren’t fallen-away Catholics) are somehow going to hell for this. I pray for them and leave their fate up to God.

Tis_Bearself:

A Catholic might say that such people in their excess (and I do mean excess, there’s nothing inherently bad about a nice outfit, nice meal or even a fancy car if you can afford it) are putting material things ahead of God and in so doing “worshipping” them instead of God.

Calliope:
Yes, so is this a different meaning of the word worship, or do people actually think that the behavior, though not in any way religious, constitutes worship?

I think here we’re running into the issue people have identified before, that to non-Catholics, “worship” is denoted by a specific set of behaviors, such as bowing down, kneeling, singing hymns, “Praising His Name”, etc. For a Catholic, “worship” is not so easily defined. We might kneel before a saint statue, but we aren’t “worshipping” either the statue or the saint it depicts. Conversely, we might not kneel but instead just devote a huge part of our time to a material thing, like material success, instead of giving a reasonable amount of time to God; we would say that’s wrongly “worshipping” material success even though the person isn’t getting down on his knees and bowing to a big pile of money or to the executive suite at his company. If you decide to skip Mass on Sunday because you prefer to go to the beach on Sundays and not spend time in church, then you are placing the beach where God is supposed to be and basically worshipping your beach time, your beach activities, or even yourself (by putting your own pleasure before God) instead of worshipping God.

 

[adf417]

I can explain that. But what about cases where Catholics travel to sites of Marian apparitions, to put a crown on the statue, kiss their feet, parade it around, stand in line to touch a statue? How do I explain that as mere symbolism?

Allow me to rephrase:

What about those who travel halfway around the world to hike Mt Everest, camp at the foot of the mountain, climb and conquer her, kiss the ground once there and post a flag. Do you consider this worship of the mountain?

-For variance please fill in your favorite sports metaphor in the above analogy-

Peace!!!

 

[FiveLinden]

I don’t know of any Catholic who worships statues or believes that statues can grant any petition

I have searched and failed to find anyone who does this. I think the whole concept of worshipping inanimate objects is a false accusation made against religions that believe a spirit, entity or force is associated with the object. This is just what Catholics do when worshipping what others consider to be bred and wine.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

This is just what Catholics do when worshipping what others consider to be bred and wine.

I don’t think anyone, including Protestants, is calling the Eucharist a “graven image”. Protestants may have their own issues with Catholic Eucharist, but idol worship is not one of them.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Again, when people travel to the Viet Nam War Memorial they place flowers, personal belongings, etc at the wall.

 

[Calliope]

I think that’s where the confusion comes from, because people do sometimes go to those places as worship. And other religions do things that appear similar to what Catholics do to statues and pilgrimage sites as acts of worship in other faiths. They look the same from the outside.

I’m not saying Catholics worship anything other than God, but you can see where the confusion comes from, it’s not always a case of ill intent.

 

[Calliope]

Sadly there are pockets of superstition and I have met people who believed such. I understand that they do not represent the teachings of the Church, but they can give the wrong impression to people who observe their practice or hear them share their particular beliefs.

 

[FiveLinden]

Protestants may have their own issues with Catholic Eucharist, but idol worship is not one of them

I thought that was the essence of their objection!

 

[TheLittleLady]

I cannot remember which well known apologist tells the story of walking past a non-Catholic Church during the Christmas season. There is a large Nativity Scene on the front lawn, complete with kneeling shepherds.

The apologist says to his non-Catholic friend “isn’t that nice, the statues are worshiping other statues”.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Not the ones I know. Various Protestant groups have different levels of belief in the presence of God in the Eucharist. However, most of them at minimum can at least accept the idea of Holy Communion as imitating what Jesus did at the Last Supper.

They have a LOT more trouble with statues and images than they do with the Eucharist, because there isn’t any part of the Bible where Jesus is kneeling before a statue (plus the express “graven images” passage), while he is undoubtedly sharing bread and wine with his Apostles.

 

[adf417]

I think that’s where the confusion comes from, because people do sometimes go to those places as worship. And other religions do things that appear similar to what Catholics do to statues and pilgrimage sites as acts of worship in other faiths. They look the same from the outside.

No, the confusion comes from: 1st allowing others to temp them into believing the church has fallen, and 2nd to allow others to redifine “worship”. This is the reason God gave us Holy Mother Church to keep us on the correct path.

Peace!!!

 

[Calliope]

I’m referring to confusion in people of other faiths. I believe the vast majority of Catholics are clear on the issue. I thought the OP was talking about explaining to non Catholics.

Without a working knowledge of Catholic theology the differences are hard to grasp.