Graven Images - Not Allowed?

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hlgomez

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I often heard fundamentalists bashing Catholics for making images and adorn the Churches with such. They are always saying that it is not based in Scriptures and always cite the 1st of the 10 Commandments. One of the known apologist in the Philippines asked a Protestant minister if God really prohibited totally the making of images. The minister answered “yes”, but the apologist showed him the verse in Scriptures where God instructed Moses to make graven images of angels for the Ark of the Covenant, also the images of lions, eagle, etc. for the Temple in Jerusalem that was built by Solomon. He just could not answer the reason why.

Pio
 
Probably the best example of GOd commanding the use of artifacts for religious perposes is the Brazen Serpent. You can find it in Numbers 21:8-9, And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

So there it is, a “graven” image made of brass, commended to be made by God Himself, and used in religious service. Try to have them contest that one.
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hlgomez:
I often heard fundamentalists bashing Catholics for making images and adorn the Churches with such. They are always saying that it is not based in Scriptures and always cite the 1st of the 10 Commandments. One of the known apologist in the Philippines asked a Protestant minister if God really prohibited totally the making of images. The minister answered “yes”, but the apologist showed him the verse in Scriptures where God instructed Moses to make graven images of angels for the Ark of the Covenant, also the images of lions, eagle, etc. for the Temple in Jerusalem that was built by Solomon. He just could not answer the reason why.

Pio
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One thing about the serpent tha Moses made out of brass at the Lord’s command. Many years later it was destroyed because people were beginning to worship it. “Graven images” aren’t, in and of themselves, bad. It’s what we do with them that is the problem.
 
Well, there are ‘graven images’ made of bronze or stone or marble, there are engravings of wood or metal, there are graven images formed by the photographic process using silver halides or color dyes, there are graven images created through electronic means such as television, video games, and all the images that show up on your computer screen. If no graven images are allowed, we are all in big trouble.

JimG
 
I always ask the Protestants if they have Nativity scenes at Christimas… 😛 They usually do. I ask if they ‘worship’ them…and they of course tell me not to be ridiculous…of course they don’t. I then lead into how we don’t worship the statues either.

I once ran into a guy who not only believed Nativity Scenes were idolatry…they believed that Bible story books for children that showed pictures of Jesus was idolatry and so was the little flannelgraph pictures that are sometimes used in teaching Sunday School. He was one of a kind… 😛

dream wanderer
 
Well, I just looked up the definition of GRAVEN IMAGE, in the Websters Collegiate Dictionary, it says:

“an object of worship carved usu. from wood or stone : IDOL” :tsktsk:

The big thing in this definition is "object of WORSHIP,"
Our statues are not objects of worship, veneration or honor, yes :yup: but worship, NO :nope: .
 
We usually have photographs of our loved ones, and sometimes kiss their pictures when we miss them. We often hang photographs on our wall, or mount them on a table so that they are always near us, almost like we do with images of saints. Photographs, like statues are likewise images, but keeping them certainly isn’t idolatry. We certainly don’t worship the paper with which the photo is made of. Photographs are simply a sophisticated and updated version of graven images, the product of modern technology, yet these are still images nonetheless.

Gerry 🙂
 
With regards to graven images, we have to answer two points.

One, we purportedly rearranged the Ten Commandments to make it appear that bowing to statues is not idol worship.

Two, we do not really know the face of Christ, Mary and the Apostles so the statues are really falsehoods and not representative of the person unlike a picture of our loved one.

I am more concerned with the first question.
  1. Is there any proof in Church History to proved that the Ten Commandments we have right now is the same Ten Commandments used by the Early Church?
  2. Given that making statues was something the Jews have an aversion to make, (Am I correct in this?), how did statues and other religious articles come into our history?
 
  1. Is there any proof in Church History to proved that the Ten Commandments we have right now is the same Ten Commandments used by the Early Church?
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Yes it is the same. Why, does it say something different in your Bible?
  1. Given that making statues was something the Jews have an aversion to make, (Am I correct in this?), how did statues and other religious articles come into our history?
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It was an instruction of God to Moses to make images of two angels for the Ark of the Covenant. Are you saying Moses didn’t hear it right and what he did was wrong?

The early record of Christian art is depicted in the Roman catacombs. I’ll quote one example of what they did:

"The early Christians lived in a mainly pagan and hostile society. During Nero’s persecution (64 A.D.) their religion was considered “a strange and illegal superstition”. The Christians were mistrusted and kept aloof, they were suspected and accused of the worst crimes. They were persecuted, imprisoned, sentenced to exile or condemned to death. Unable to profess their faith openly, *the Christians made use of symbols, which they depicted on the walls of the catacombs and, more often, carved them on the marble-slabs which sealed the tombs. Like the ancient, the Christians were very fond of symbolism. The symbols were a visible reminder of their faith. The term “symbol " refers to a concrete sign or figure, which, according to the author’s intention, recalls an idea or a spiritual reality. The main symbols are: the Good Shepherd, the “Orante”, the monogram of Christ and the fish.”
*

There are more than sixty catacombs in Rome, with hundreds of miles of galleries and tens of thousands of tombs. Catacombs are found also at Chiusi, Bolsena, Naples, in eastem Sicily and in North Africa too.

Pio
 
The catacombs are visited to-day by thousands of pilgrims from all over the world, because of their importance. The catacombs with their precious patrimony of paintings, inscriptions, sculptures, etc., are considered the authentic archives of the primitive Church, which document her usages and customs, her rites and beliefs and the Christian doctrine, as it was understood, taught and practised in that time.

The early Christians did not bury their faith nor their lives in the underground, but lived common people lives in their families, in society, in all activities, jobs and professions. They testified their faith everywhere, but it was in the catacombs that those heroic Christians found the strength and support to face the trials and persecutions, as they prayed to God through the martyrs’ intercession.

Pio
 
Graven Images.

I am so tired of hearing this argument against the Catholic Church it is so weak, those who use it have to intentionally misinterpret Catholic doctrine…

Anti- Catholics often accuse Catholics of being idol worshipers. The Bible forbids “graven images” This is shown in scripure, particularly when the Hebrews made a golden calf to worship. So why do Catholics use statues?

God himself instructed Moses to make two statues for the Ark of the covenant. “Make two cherubim of beaten gold” Exodus 25:18 God forbids the worship of images, not the mere use of them as aids to prayer.

Exodus 20:4 forbids making the likeness of anything in heaven or on Earth? God forbids making images to be worshipped. He didn’t forbid all images in general. In fact, images were used in His Temple. **"… on its panels he carved cherubim, lions and palm trees." 1Kings 7:36 **If God forbade all images, you couldn’t sculpt figures or draw pictures of birds, fish or anything.

The most annoying accusation is that “Catholics took out the second commandment because they worship statues” http://www.mediablvd.com/forums/images/smiles/rolleyes.gif We number the commandments differently, but ours are the same as Protestant translations **“You shall have no other gods before me.” Deuteronomy 5:7 **Our first Commandment forbids all idol worship. The Protestant second commandment is a part of our first.

"And the Lord said unto Moses, 'Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole; and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of bronze, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass that, if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of bronze, he lived. Numbers 21:8-9

And within the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olive tree, each ten cubits high. And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub: from the outmost part of the one wing unto the outmost part of the other was ten cubits. An the other cherub was ten cubits; both the cherubim were of one measure and one size. The height of the one cherub was ten cubits and so was it of the other cherub And he set the cherubim within the inner house. And they stretched forth the wings of the cherubim, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall.; and their wings touched one another in teh middle of the house. And he overlaid the cherubim with gold And he carved all the walls of the house round abut with carved figures of cherubim and the palm trees and open flowers, within and without. 1 Kings 6:23-29 KJV.

Catholics are not worshiping images in any way, that would be idolatry. We use them as a visual reminder of God, Jesus, angels or cherubim as the Scripture describes above. Statues and paintings, frescos or other artwork are visual aids or reminders. Human beings learn with their eyes hence the phrase " a picture tells a thousand words." Just as you may have photographs of your family or others you love, is no different from Catholics having statues or prints of paintings of an artist’s rendition of Scripture, saints or Jesus. Saints are members of the Body of Christ, our spiritual family.

My next post is a continuaton of this:
 
To anyone who has a problem with Catholics having statues and paintings in our Churches and other places of worship, You have a bigger problem with Scripture… I quoted it here, take it up with God… He is the one who told Moses to make an image of a snake on his staff, and God is the one who Spoke and instructed the Hebrews on what images and statues to carve on the Ark of the Covenant and to place in Solomon’s Temple… you dont’ think they were worshiping those images do you? Don’t complain to Catholics, complain to God. WE ARE NOT WORSHIPING STATUES! Furthermore, it is Scriptural for us to have such images. You now know the truth. If you continue to claim Catholics worship graven images, you are committing slandar, twisting doctrine *and *going against Scripture.
 
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Aris:
Two, we do not really know the face of Christ, Mary and the Apostles so the statues are really falsehoods and not representative of the person unlike a picture of our loved one.
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We could always explain the image of Mary on Juan Diego’s tilma “Our Lady of Guadelupe”… but something tells me this would open up another line of argument:rotfl:
 
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Peace-bwu:
Graven Images.

The most annoying accusation is that “Catholics took out the second commandment because they worship statues” http://www.mediablvd.com/forums/images/smiles/rolleyes.gif We number the commandments differently, but ours are the same as Protestant translations **“You shall have no other gods before me.” Deuteronomy 5:7 **Our first Commandment forbids all idol worship. The Protestant second commandment is a part of our first.
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I’m curious…did the Catholic Church number them differently or was it the Protestants?
 
hello all,

i know of several ex-catholics, who discarded the holy images they once had .consequently,they experienced misfortunes after misfortunes e.g.mysterious illness,instant death,bankruptcy.one couple buried the images after joining an anti-catholic sect.both of them became seriously ill,had a sudden financial plunge etc.when the man was on the verge of dying,he requested his wife to call a priest to officiate the last rite.another true account,a catholic friend’s sister and his wife,who were so called "born again christians"rippeda apart calendar with image of “sacred heart of jesus” on it, as for them it was practice of idolatry. at first he warned them not do it,but to no avail.that night both of them(women) got ill and he reminded them what they did!i heard numerous similar accounts from people who have left and returned to the faith.an image can be a lifesaver too as in year 2000?,an article from indianapolis star newspaper featured a shopowner,who was robbed in his store. one of the robbers,pointed a gun in his head and was about to pull the trigger,when the former,suddenly saw the statue of virgin mary in the store and fled.the victim stated,that god save his life thru the image of his mother.

peace to all,
silvano
 
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Aris:
Two, we do not really know the face of Christ, Mary and the Apostles so the statues are really falsehoods and not representative of the person unlike a picture of our loved one.
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Actually, while we do not really know how Christ, Mary and the apostles physically looked like, it really isn’t necessary for us to know. They may not be accurate representations, but they are not falsehoods, because the term “falsehood” logically implies a deliberate and malicious attempt to mislead people. The makers of those statues never claimed that “This is how Jesus actually looked like!”, thus there is no attempt to mislead and hence, no falsehood.

What truly matters is your intention.

Gerry 🙂
 
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hlgomez:
Yes it is the same. Why, does it say something different in your Bible?
Pio
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Of course, it is the same. But there is no numbering to refer to in the bible. If I base it on the number of sentences, that is more than ten or I could conclude that the ninth and tenth are really one commandment.

I am asking for a reference that says this was the First Commandment, This was the Second commandment etc.
 
The issue here is about graven images, not the 10 Commandments. But, whether they are numbered like this or that, it doesn’t change the essence of the Commandments.

Peace-bwu had made a very good point pointing to Scripture themselves that God really didn’t forbid totally the making of graven images, but the making of a graven image and worshipping them is NOT ALLOWED. So many Protestants have misunderstood greatly the Catholic teachings.

Here I qoute some statements regarding the Council of Nicaea II, also known as “The Iconoclast Synod of Constantinople.”

For they followed unholy men and trusting to their own frenzies they calumniated the holy church, which Christ our God has espoused to himself, and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols…

One of these is the production of representational art; this is quite in harmony with the history of the spread of the gospel, as it provides confirmation that the becoming man of the Word of God was real and not just imaginary, and as it brings us a similar benefit. For, things that mutually illustrate one another undoubtedly possess one another’s message.

The more frequently they are seen in representational art, the more are those who see them drawn to remember and long for those who serve as models, and to pay these images the tribute of salutation and respectful veneration. Certainly this is not the full adoration {latria} in accordance with our faith, which is properly paid only to the divine nature… Further, people are drawn to honour these images with the offering of incense and lights, as was piously established by ancient custom. Indeed, the honour paid to an image traverses it, reaching the model, and he who venerates the image, venerates the person represented in that image.

Pio
 
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hlgomez:
The issue here is about graven images, not the 10 Commandments. But, whether they are numbered like this or that, it doesn’t change the essence of the Commandments.
Pio
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Ah, but the charge against us is that we have interpreted the Bible to renumber the 10 Commandments to suit our interpretation of graven images.

I am trying to find a source from the Early Church Fathers to show what kind of numbering they used.
 
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