Graven Images - Not Allowed?

[carol_marie]

But what about people who travel far & wide to view a huge traveling statue of Mary? It came to Chicago awhile back and I read about it in the paper. People interviewed said that they came because of this illness or that… they hoped being near the statue would help. Over the top… don’t you think??

 

[Psalm45_9]

“Beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure… the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth.” (Deuteronmy 4:16, 18)

Protestans love using Deuteronomy 4:16 against Catholics, but they forget to read verese 18. At that point, take the Bible from their hand, go the the bumper of their car and rip the fish off of it as you read verse 18.

 

[Aris]

Aris:

I am trying to find a source from the Early Church Fathers to show what kind of numbering they used.

People, I am trying to sharpen my Apologetics tools and I need documents to back me up.

 

[Psalm45_9]

I believe that the Lutherans use the same numbering that we do. It is almost common sense people! In order for a graven image to be an idol, the image must be viewed as a god/goddess. The first commandment is Thou shalt have no gods but me. An idol is another god, so it goes against the first commandment. Thus the church has combined the idolatry prohibitation as part of the first commandment. Now if God said we could not build statues for sacramentals and holy reminders, then he would not have blessed Solomon’s temple.

 

[Aris]

Again, common sense and logic doesn’t work easily especially when the one you’re talking to asks for proof.

The best proof is to show that the way we interpreted the 10 commandments has never changed.

Number 21:8-9 only weakens the argument of the Protestant but does not totally convince the Protestant listener. There should be a follow-up

 

[Psalm45_9]

That’s when you ask them if they have pictures of their kids in their wallets, ask them why they have a fish on their bumper, and it’s time to take a little trip to Washington D.C. to see all the idols of the gods: Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln… Then ask them if they think that’s ridiculous. And if they have a nativity scene in their house at Christmas, remind them of the ten commandments…

 

[jimmy]

It seems like all the protestants are gone. We have no one to dialogue against on this issue.

 

[mercygate]

Here’s a little nuance: Exod 20:4 says “you shall not make **for yourself **a graven image . . .” Here I echo what has already been said above. The point of the commandment is not to create gods as objects of worship.

The use of images in worship is rooted in the doctrine of the Incarnation. Has to do with being made in the image of God. This can be a little to subtle for Protestants if they are coming from a hostile position, so it’s not something to bring up right away. Stick with the Scriptures commanding the use of images and with the excellent: Do you have pictures of your family?

 

[Aris]

jimmy:

It seems like all the protestants are gone. We have no one to dialogue against on this issue.

Jimmy,

I still have that question. What document or reference can we quote that would say that the way we numbered the ten commandments was the way the Early Church numbered theirs.

Or maybe what is the earliest recorded document saying what is the numbering of the Ten Commandments

 

[Psalm45_9]

Aris:

I still have that question. What document or reference can we quote that would say that the way we numbered the ten commandments was the way the Early Church numbered theirs.

Aris, have you thought about asking this question in the AAA forum?

 

[Aris]

Yes, I did. It was last Sept 6 and no answer yet. I don’t know how to ask the status of that question.

 

[Psalm45_9]

I understand, it takes them a while to answer everyone’s questions. It took 2 weeks for one of my questions.

 

[Kevan]

jimmy:

It seems like all the protestants are gone. We have no one to dialogue against on this issue.

Glad to help.

My crowd has a negative view of iconography because of the “looks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc.” common sense view of what we see when we look at Catholics. It looks like worship, walks like worship, quacks like worship, but you say it isn’t worship.

Maybe you could address three points:

1. 
   *]What changes would be necessary for “veneration” of an image to become “worship” of that image?
   *]Do any Catholics slip into idolatry in their use of images?
   *]What difference do you see between the beliefs of Israel’s neighbors regarding their images and your beliefs regarding yours?

 

[mercygate]

Kevan:

Glad to help.

1. 
   *]What changes would be necessary for “veneration” of an image to become “worship” of that image?
   *]Do any Catholics slip into idolatry in their use of images?
   *]What difference do you see between the beliefs of Israel’s neighbors regarding their images and your beliefs regarding yours?

1. 
   These are GREAT questions!
   1. You need to look at the Seventh Ecumenical council to understand the degrees of “veneration” and “worship” with respect to the use of images. (You can do that yourself) Part of the problem is that in English we have used the single word “worship” in place of more nuanced language that better describes the level of “worship” proper to various images or other objects of veneration, such as holy relics.
   2. Undoubtedly: Just as we slip into abuses in the Mass; slip in to abuses in our relationships with one another; slip into the abuse of prescription drugs. That doesn’t change the value or validity of any of these things. You cannot value a thing by its misuse.
   3. Israel’s neighbors (and Israel in making the golden calf) looked to the image itself as the god. Moreover, in their worship, Israel’s neighbors were not making images of the faith of Israel. They did not depict the hospitality of Abraham. God himself commanded the making of images to be used in worship (not to BE worshiped). Images are thus not absolutely forbidden in themselves; they are forbidden as objects of worship in themselves.
   When Christians use images in worship, we use them on several levels. At bottom, the image reminds us of the holy person or thing and aids in concentration on the virtue or holy mystery represented by it. An image of the crucifixion reminds us of the crucifixion and helps us focus on it. Some of our Eastern brothers here will tell you that an icon is like a window into eternity. By meditating on the image, we are drawn into the mystery it represents . . . It brings us closer to the mysteries of our faith.
   
   Again: really good questions! Hope these responses make sense – or at least help you to understand that we are not idol worshipers!

 

[Kevan]

mercygate:

1. You need to look at the Seventh Ecumenical council to understand the degrees of “veneration” and “worship” with respect to the use of images. (You can do that yourself)

So it’s not real clear to you, either?

I’m investigating whether or not there really is a difference between veneration and worship. You say that some Catholics worship images. Well, that’s what noncatholics say, too. Hard to fault us for that accusation unless you can demonstrate how you tell the difference.

I have the sneaking suspicion that, as soon as you get specific in concrete ways, you’ll be describing friends, loved ones, and fellow communicants in your parish. If I’m wrong, I’ll be happy to see the evidence.

When Christians use images in worship, we use them on several levels. At bottom, the image reminds us of the holy person or thing and aids in concentration on the virtue or holy mystery represented by it. An image of the crucifixion reminds us of the crucifixion and helps us focus on it. Some of our Eastern brothers here will tell you that an icon is like a window into eternity. By meditating on the image, we are drawn into the mystery it represents . . . It brings us closer to the mysteries of our faith.

Well, we “artsy-feely” Protestants meditate on images, too. That’s not the point of disagreement. Some Catholics talk to the images, ask them to work miracles, bury the poor things upside down in the yard, set them on failing clothes washing machines to keep the machines running, burn candles in their presence as though the image could see what’s going on, and such like. Am I wrong?

Can somebody give some clear examples of what it looks like when the veneration of images becomes worship?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Aris:

1. Is there any proof in Church History to proved that the Ten Commandments we have right now is the same Ten Commandments used by the Early Church?

Not that I know of. When Scripture was written there were no chapter and verse indications. There was no punctuation, no separations of any kind. The commandments aren’t numbered in Scripture. The Protestant numbering of the ten commandments is part of their tradition, although you’d be hard pressed to find one who will admit as much.

The Protestant claim that the Church changed the numbering of the commandments to allow for statue worship is a red herring. The first commandmenst say “I am the Lord your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me”. To makes a statue and worship it as a god is to have a strange god. Not worshippiing statues is part of the first commandment. I’m unclear on why that’s unclear to those Protestants who claim otherwise.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[GaryTZ]

I was taught as a kid attending Catholic school, the reason for pictures and statues of Jesus and the saints was a reminder of who they are and by their teachings and example we learn how to live a virtuous life. Jesus taught us how to live our lives, and the saints put it into practice, which led to their heavenly reward. Isn’t this how we learn to live our lives by example? As Gerry has said “We often hang photographs on our walls, or mount them on a table so that they are always near us…” Why?, because “we miss them.” We miss them because of what they had done for us.
There are quite a few Protestant Christians who believe that their dead relatives and friends are in heaven. They will also point out how wrong it is for Catholics to have graven images of Jesus and the saints who are in heaven. If this is so wrong, ask them if they would be willing to destroy their photos, paintings, drawings, video tapes, etc of their deceased loved ones.
God Bless
Gary

RobedWithLight:

We usually have photographs of our loved ones, and sometimes kiss their pictures when we miss them. We often hang photographs on our wall, or mount them on a table so that they are always near us, almost like we do with images of saints. Photographs, like statues are likewise images, but keeping them certainly isn’t idolatry. We certainly don’t worship the paper with which the photo is made of. Photographs are simply a sophisticated and updated version of graven images, the product of modern technology, yet these are still images nonetheless.

Gerry

 

[mercygate]

Kevan:

So it’s not real clear to you, either?

On the contrary. In directing you to the Seventh Ecumenical Council I was simply respecting your ability to do the research for yourself.

Kevan:

You say that some Catholics worship images. Well, that’s what noncatholics say, too. Hard to fault us for that accusation unless you can demonstrate how you tell the difference.

Ah, but Catholics are not *taught *to worship images. I very clearly delineated the difference in my previous post, while honestly recognizing and admitting that in cultures where illiteracy runs high and images are a primary way in which simple people relate to their faith, abuses have very likely occurred and still may.

Would you judge a thing by its misuse? Is sex bad because there is rape? People abuse prescription drugs; does that mean we should not use them properly? Is it worse for a simple Catholic, in ignorance, to err in his use of images than for a non-Catholic, in ignorance, to err by condemning the practice unjustly?

Kevan:

Some Catholics talk to the images, ask them to work miracles,

The appearance of “talking to an image” is just that: an appearance. They are asking the saint, whose image is before them, to intercede on their behalf, just as we ask our living brothers in Christ to pray for us.

Kevan:

. . . bury the poor things upside down in the yard, set them on failing clothes washing machines to keep the machines running, burn candles in their presence as though the image could see what’s going on, and such like. Am I wrong?

Even here, where you touch on practices that border on superstition, your conclusion is incorrect. It is understandable that non-Catholics misjudge the use of images (though many have stained glass windows in their churches) when they judge only by such practices (none of which I have ever observed myself). Yet even though someone might put a statue on a failing washing machine, you do not believe that the person thinks the STATUE will keep the machine running, do you? Or that a statue can see a candle? (I am sure you do not mean that.) Let’s take the high road here. You must know that the person is using the statue in their prayer that the saint intercede to God that the machine will be kept running. People really do have an admirable faith that God cares for even the most trivial details of their lives! This sort of thing should in no way be misconstrued as “worship” in the sense that the Commandment condemns.

I say again: where there is apparent or even actual abuse, it is unfair to judge a practice by the abuse.

Kevan:

Can somebody give some clear examples of what it looks like when the veneration of images becomes worship?

Unlikely. Outward appearance is not the issue. If God himself commanded the making of images to be used in worship and otherwise (Ex. 25:18-20, 28:33-34, 37:9; Num. 8:4, 21:8-9; I Kings 6:18, 7:6-7, 23-28, 29, 36, 10:19-20; Ezek. 1:5, 10:20), we must presume that he deems us capable of using them properly, and we, likewise, presume that someone we see using images is using them properly.

 

[Imprimartin]

Kevan:

So it’s not real clear to you, either?

-snip-

Well, we “artsy-feely” Protestants meditate on images, too. That’s not the point of disagreement. Some Catholics talk to the images, ask them to work miracles, bury the poor things upside down in the yard, set them on failing clothes washing machines to keep the machines running, burn candles in their presence as though the image could see what’s going on, and such like. Am I wrong?

Can somebody give some clear examples of what it looks like when the veneration of images becomes worship?

The bible gives us a clue about the difference between veneration and worship in the bronze serpent. In the previous posts, the verse is given where God commands for the serpent to be cast.

Then later (like 800 years later!) King Hezekiah destroys the serpent because somebody was worshiping it. How did he know they were worshiping it? What did he see?
2Kings 18:1-4:

Now it came about in R527 the third year of Hoshea, the son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah R528 the son of Ahaz king of Judah became king. 2 He was twenty-five R529 years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem; and his mother’s name was Abi the daughter of Zechariah. 3 He R530 did right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father David had done. 4 He R531 removed the high places and broke down the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah. F237 He also broke in pieces the R532 bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan.

So they “burned incense to it” and gave it a name. I don’t think this is the only thing which constitutes worship but It’s a start. I have more but I would like you to respond to this.

Martin

 

[hlgomez]

So they “burned incense to it” and gave it a name. I don’t think this is the only thing which constitutes worship but It’s a start. I have more but I would like you to respond to this.

Martin

Pardon if I respond to your argument. With all that was happening in Hezekiah’s time, can you take a closer look at what the people were doing? If I may be allowed to speak further, I would say, “Can you recognize that which is holy from the profane?”

If you are saying that you liken the images of God’s holy people to that of pagan religions, then there is something wrong with how you view the subject. Are we naming the saints as “St. John–a God, St. Paul–another God”? God forbid! You must know how we Catholics really view such images as who really they are. Don’t rush to judgement as if we are like the heathens. The people in Hezekiah’s time were making the bronze serpent a “God” since they were influenced by the pagan gods–thus drawing them away from God.

Now, burning incense to holy objects were not foreign to the Jews. See Ex. 40:26 “He (Aaron) placed the golden altar in the meeting tent, in front of the veil, and on it he burned fragrant incense, as the LORD had commanded him.” So as the consecration of objects such as the altar, all the furnishings, etc. (see previous verses in same chapter) It’s the way the Catholic Church is doing in the churches after they are built, with all the objects that are going to be used-- vestments, the altar, etc.–all of them are consecrated to make them holy and fit for the service to the Lord before celebrating the Mass for the first time in a particular church.

Pio