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cfrancis
Guest
So am I
Good thing I don’t hold to the Protestant version of the 10 Commandments, else I’d have to chuck a bunch of statues!!!
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Steadfast
Guest
The prohibition against graven images had to do with worshiping sticks and rocks, not making pictures, even religious pictures. This is seen clearly in that the prohibition is defined by “neither shall you bow doen before them”. This isn’t given as a kind of addendum, as in, don’t make them and don’t worship them; what is really being said is that they should not be made for the purposes of worship.
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Thing
Guest
Its because They associate graven images with Catholicism.
And They have a great fear and loathing of Catholicism.
Consider Their Catholic ancestors in Holland.
Their artists produced sacred art commissioned by the RCC.
When They abandoned their faith they out-lawed sacred art.
Religous art, anything that reminded them of the sacred, had to be destroyed.
Their artists were hunted.
And they took what had been sacred art reminding them of all things Sacred.
And replaced it with self-portraiture reminding them of themselves.
:tsktsk:
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Wolseley
Guest
No, because it isn’t engraved.
That’s what “graven” means, by the way----it’s Elizabethan English for “engraved”. “Carved” might be another meaning, as in “idol carved out of stone”.
Images, whatever they might be, are perfectly fine, as long as you don’t literally bow down and *worship the image. *
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water
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That is quite precise what I like to define. But I just hope people don’t think the Eucharist is graven image though.
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johnnydigit
Guest
i’ve had a long conversation with someone dear to me about the issue, and we came to the conclusion that one cannot assume what one is thinking or praying to when they view an image. basically, they view what we do as “going too far”.Its because They associate graven images with Catholicism.
And They have a great fear and loathing of Catholicism.
Consider Their Catholic ancestors in Holland.
Their artists produced sacred art commissioned by the RCC.
When They abandoned their faith they out-lawed sacred art.
Religous art, anything that reminded them of the sacred, had to be destroyed.
Their artists were hunted.
And they took what had been sacred art reminding them of all things Sacred.
And replaced it with self-portraiture reminding them of themselves.
my main argument was that people will immediately accuse Catholics of “overdoing it” with Mary and images. the problem is, they cannot specifically p(name removed by moderator)oint what the line is that you cannot cross. either you are violating a Commandment, or you aren’t - not, “well it seems like you are”.
e.g., they might say it’s ok to have a picture of Jesus in your room, but not everywhere in your house… it’s ok to have a picture of Mary Magdalene in your Bible, but not a big one on your wall. it’s ok to have a picture of your family in your wallet, but not a big one on the wall where you pray. they realize that to do this is subjective, and they cannot judge Catholics and say they’re “going too far”, because someone else could very well presume the same thing about them.
then of course there’s the types of worship that the Church clarifies, (latria, dulia, hyperdulia) but i don’t think they were ready for that.
patient and loving education is key.
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Thing
Guest
Interesting that outbreaks of iconoclasm in history have had their origins in heresies and anti-Catholic faiths. Like Cromwell said; if I could break the rosary chain I could crush the Irish Catholics.
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Fuerza
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I was waiting for someone to point this out. As you said, it’s only a graven image if it has been engraved.
Honestly I never understood the controversy with this issue. The commandment was clearly meant to keep people from worshipping false gods. The reason that graven images were singled out is precisely because the Israelites were using them to represent false gods, not because God has a problem with the Things Remembered chain of stores. There are several examples in Scripture where the people are commanded to make graven images for the purposes of worshipping the true God. As long as they’re used in that context, and not as a means to worship some other god or even the image itself, there’s really no problem.
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kalt
Guest
Our Communion wafers have a small cross in the center.
I’m not sure if all Communion wafers do, but they do in my parish.
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kalt
Guest
This is a definition I found.
"One entry found.
graven image
Main Entry: graven image
Function: noun
Etymology: graven, past participle of 1grave
Date: 14th century
: an object of worship carved usually from wood or stone : idol "
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kalt
Guest
This is the CCC on “graven images”.
If you’re a non-Catholic, can you give me your definition of a graven image?
" IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .”
2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."67 He is "the author of beauty."68
2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69
2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71 "
If you’re a non-Catholic, can you give me your definition of a graven image?
" IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .”
2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."67 He is "the author of beauty."68
2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69
2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71 "
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paarsurrey
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paarsurrey
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
Then why worship “An image of Christ, or of the Saints does no such thing” to start with.
Thanks
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Thing
Guest
Does somebody worship images?
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johnnydigit
Guest
again, no one worships images. they help you to worship the One, true God.
man was made very tactile. we respond to touch. God uses how we were made to help us to grow closer to Him. He uses all of our senses: touch, sight, smell, sound, and even taste.
this is part of the beauty of the Catholic Church.
-we can touch the Crucifix, a crown of thorns, flowers, or anything to remind us of Jesus’ passion and resurrection.
-we can see pictures of His suffering, the joy of His resurrection, scenes from Scripture, anything.
-we can smell flowers, burning incense, palm leaves, ancient fragrances.
-we can hear ancient songs that stir the soul, babies and women crying, people singing in joy, oppressors yelling in anger, the Word of God, and all the things that Jesus heard.
-we can taste the bread He ate, the bitter herbs, the savory meats, old wine, new wine, and especially His body and blood on our tongues.
is any of this absolutely necessary? of course not. you can just sit in a cement room in the desert and be void of many of these senses, but it would just be harder (some say easier) to hear God. God wants to meet us by making things easier, not harder. He made us in His image, and he uses all of our faculties to be totally and completely immersed in His presence. hope that helps!
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