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historyb
Guest
Ah I never ran into a Christian basher before that uses red herrings.
- Status
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jam070406
Guest
Don’t know about that, but, it can’t be near as the number of anti-Catholics that visit these boards.
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slyboots
Guest
Things that made me think in this thread…
- Someone said “Many Protestant denominations believe that Jesus is real present under the wine and bread.” Episcopalians, their Anglican cousins and some Lutherans may believe this. Baptists certainly do not. Nor do Nazarenes, Pentecostals, Methodists, Presbyterians, Disciples of Christ or those from either the Congregational North or Southern branch of the Church of Christ. It is in memory of Him. it is NOT Him.
- Having been raised and spent beaucoups time in several different protestant mainstream faiths, I can tell you that crucifixes are generally not seen. They feel they worship a risen Christ so the cross is empty. In many protestant churches you will not see a cross at all. But you may see a print of Jesus knocking at the door.
- Protestants, Jews, and Muslims cannot understand how we Catholics can have statues that we kneel and pray before and not worship them. They do not understand “hyperdulia” the concept of veneration which we give Our Blessed Mother, “Latria” which we offer only to God, or “dulia” which we have for the rest of the saints. If they did/could understand it, they could probably wade the Tiber without any other problem.
- Graven images from the commandments to my understanding are man created images which are worshipped as if they had life and were actually deities.
So, if you are not Catholic, and you happen into a protestant church and see the picture of Jesus knocking, believe it or not, it really is just a piece of art that inspires the soul to think about God.
And most all the Catholics I have met do not believe Mary is a little plaster statue on a home oratory. Or that the crucifix over their bed/door/family altar or shrine is really Jesus still being crucified.
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kalt
Guest
And what about those stuffed fish hanging on their walls? And heads of deer? And those singing fish (Take Me to the River)? They’re not real, but they are images.
I’ve asked Protestants why they have nativity scenes, which are full of statues. They say that it’s OK because they don’t worship them. When I remind them that Catholics don’t worship statues, they say that we pray in front of them. This is true, I say, and remind them that they pray “in front of” their nativity scenes. They claim they don’t, of course. But I find it hard to believe that they are gazing on the statues and aren’t meditating on all that the scene represents. I guess they don’t consider meditative prayer real prayer.
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John_Hiner
Guest
Laudetur Iesus Christus.And what about those stuffed fish hanging on their walls? And heads of deer? And those singing fish (Take Me to the River)? They’re not real, but they are images.
I’ve asked Protestants why they have nativity scenes, which are full of statues. They say that it’s OK because they don’t worship them. When I remind them that Catholics don’t worship statues, they say that we pray in front of them. This is true, I say, and remind them that they pray “in front of” their nativity scenes. They claim they don’t, of course. But I find it hard to believe that they are gazing on the statues and aren’t meditating on all that the scene represents. I guess they don’t consider meditative prayer real prayer.
One problem is that we do not speak the same language. They do not have a fully developed understanding of “worship,” and so they confuse it with “adoration.” Not knowing the difference, they “accuse” the Church of something which is proper and good to do, but speak as though it is a crime. While at the same time, failing to do what the Lord has commanded and made possible, they commit a crime of omission without even having the vocabulary to discuss the sin.
It is a deep trap for the separated brethren, into which not a few “technically” united members of the Church Militant fall.
Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.
John Hiner
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SpiritMeadow
Guest
It certainly does. I assume Baptists don’t believe in the real presence, but I’m not an expert certainly on Baptist practices. It certainly does depend on the denomination.
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SpiritMeadow
Guest
Oh think the point is well made. Some people do treat the bible as if it were God and thus worship it. I think it can be the subject of being an idol.
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SpiritMeadow
Guest
Sometimes we do not speak the same language, but I wonder what you mean by a “not fully developed understanding of worship”? I assure you some of are not confused. We know the difference, or at most of us do. I don’t accuse the RCC of doing anything improper at all. Adoration is perfectly fine to me. That doesn’t mean I don’t disagree with some RC practices, but then I disagreed with some when I was a RC.
Your cynicism is off base here. We are not, as you seem to say in veiled “paternalistic” language, children who haven’t grown up sufficiently. Sometimes we just disagree with you, sometimes we don’t but don’t choose to follow your example for any number of reasons.
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kalt
Guest
In the other poster’s defense, most non-Catholics who post here don’t speak the language. You and a few others are the exception to the rule.
For those who don’t know, adoration is given to God only. We venerate the saints, etc.
It’s my opinion, for what it’s worth
, that if you’re operating with an idea of worship that is less-full than the one below is you’re missing out. (Universal you, of course.)WORSHIP
Acknowledgment of another’s worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration. Divine worship actually includes three principal acts, namely adoratin (or the recognition of God’s infinite perfection), prayer or the asking for divine help, and sacrifice or the offering of something precious to God. Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the angels and saints are honored for their sanctity, asked to intercede before the divine Majesty, and imitated in their love and service of God. (Etym. Old English weorthscipe, honor, dignity, reverence: weorth, worth +ship.)
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informed
Guest
I do not object to nativity scenes, because people do not pray to them, or ask them for favors etc.
While educated in Catholic schools we were taught to pray to the statues in our Church of Mary, Jesus, Joseph and various saints and ask for intercession or answers to our prayer requests. Church members would slip money into an offering box and light candles to these statues, and venerate them. Relics of saints were worn for protection and reverence. This is idol worship, plain and simple.
While educated in Catholic schools we were taught to pray to the statues in our Church of Mary, Jesus, Joseph and various saints and ask for intercession or answers to our prayer requests. Church members would slip money into an offering box and light candles to these statues, and venerate them. Relics of saints were worn for protection and reverence. This is idol worship, plain and simple.
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SalomeBintullah
Guest
There’s a big difference between praying in front of a statue and venerating it, and asking the saint himself for intercession. The only thing you’ve proven here is that you misunderstand Catholic beliefs, despite having gone to Catholic school. All you’ve shown is that we venerate religious objects. You have yet to prove that we worship idols.
I’m sorry, but this just doesn’t make sense to me. I’m not Catholic, but I know that Catholics don’t pray to any statue of Mary. They may pray that Mary interceede for them while standing in front of a statue of her, but that’s not praying to the statue.
In my church a large crucifix hangs down over the altar. When I pray to Jesus the Christ in front of that crucifix, I’m not praying to the crucifix itself.
Jon
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peary2
Guest
No. If you read your bible correctly, you will notice that, in the OT, God commanded - commanded - the Israelites to make religious objects - not to worship but to venerate. Veneration is not worship. It is showing great honor towards someone or to Christ. The OT makes it explicitly clear that idol worship is “false gods” that abounded in the middle east during this time. Saints and Mary are part of the body of Christ. They are not gods. The crucifix is a venerated symbol in that it honors the death of Our Lord and brings to our minds that without the shedding of His blood, we would not be saved. Also, a ‘graven’ image is that of a god carved out of wood, as it was understood at the time.
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kalt
Guest
If the prohibition is against making images of anything in Heaven or on Earth, why is there an exception for nativity scenes?
If you don’t object to Mary in the nativity, then there is no reason to object to Mary in a church. And I think that you probably don’t object to all the Catholic paintings of Jesus, Mary, and the Saints, which are also images.
It seems that you don’t object to so-called “graven” images, but to any Catholic practice not followed by you. So Mary is good so long as she’s in a nativity, because you use nativity scenes, but you object to Mary in a Catholic Church.
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Don_L
Guest
I’m a bit surprised not to see anything in response here about present day environmental and animal worship (pagan traditions for sure) since God’s admonition is clearly against making images of things of nature (the nature he created, lest we forget) and idolizing them as gods.
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John_Hiner
Guest
Laudetur Iesus Christus.
Dear “informed:”
Would you make the same arguments about videophones? When a person “talks to” his computer screen and reacts to the image of the other person in the “video conference,” would you say that he is “talking to his computer,” rather than talking to the person?
It seems to me that current technology is giving us many examples of the use of images as aids to communication which should help to clarify what the Church has taught about the use of holy images since the Second Council of Nicaea (A.D. 787).
Pax Christi nobiscum.
John Hiner
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happilycatholic
Guest
Hi Informed:
Respectufully disagreeing here, simply speaking to a person (or image) does not constitute worship.
I rather like this quote from a previous post: "They do not have a fully developed understanding of “worship,” and so they confuse it with “adoration.” "
Peace be with you.
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happilycatholic
Guest
Now, all non-catholics, you are free to move about and venerate the Bible (without worshipping it)
Now, see how easy that was?
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happilycatholic
Guest
Certainly not a red herring at all. As a Baptist I was never allowed to place anything on top of the Bible. It was never allowed on the floor. Not that I believe this is worship, I believe it to be veneration. But most protestants don’t know the difference. They seem to take it one step further and ‘worship’ the Bible. And if we use many protestant definitions of worship, then what are catholics to believe?
Do you know how many jaws would drop in a Baptist church if I said, “the Bible is a learning tool”. I might be flogged.
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kalt
Guest
I posted this earlier, but it looks like it needs to be posted again. When we say worship, it means more, sometimes, than it does in other Christian religions. Before a certain poster accuses me of saying that Catholics are better becauese I used the word “more”, let me clarify. The word worship is broader, sometimes, when used by Catholics than it is when used by other Christians. More is not a value judgement (though I do think the broader, richer, definition is better and is not exclusive to Catholic use), but a statement that worship means “more” (it has more meanings) in Catholic usage.
WORSHIP
Acknowledgment of another’s worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion,worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration. Divine worship actually includes three principal acts, namely adoratin (or the recognition of God’s infinite perfection), prayer or the asking for divine help, and sacrifice or the offering of something precious to God. Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the angels and saints are honored for their sanctity, asked to intercede before the divine Majesty, and imitated in their love and service of God. (Etym. Old English weorthscipe, honor, dignity, reverence: weorth, worth +ship.)
So Catholics give adoration only to God, and they venerate the Saints. Non-Catholic Christians generally only give adoration to God. They don’t, usually, venerate Saints.
If you’re a non-Catholic Christian who is averse to venerating the saints, can you explain why? " Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the angels and saints are honored for their sanctity, asked to intercede before the divine Majesty, and imitated in their love and service of God."
And don’t non-Catholic Christians ask their guardian angel to watch over them? Isn’t that veneration? Isn’t that intercessory prayer?
We’ve all seen the bumper stickers that read, “Don’t drive faster than your guardian angel can fly”. Certainly, then, non-Catholic Christians do acknowledge that those in Heaven are aware of us and, more, are concerned.
Many non-Catholic Christians talk to their deceased relatives and friends when they visit the cemetary. I think that on some level, they do think, or hope anyway, that the people who’ve gone before them are in some way aware of them still. Otherwise, why talk to the air? And why do it, especially, at the cemetary? I think they have an innate inkling that there is something to these prayers to saints.
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