Great and Holy Council, 2013?

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If it is to be rejected,may you please present an alternate method of re-unifying Christ Church?
It certainly can’t be accomplished by compromising the truth, which at its root is what ecumenism is all about. Look at all of these “joint statements” coming out these days which do nothing but attempt to compromise on the truth.
 
It certainly can’t be accomplished by compromising the truth, which at its root is what ecumenism is all about. Look at all of these “joint statements” coming out these days which do nothing but attempt to compromise on the truth.
👍
 
It certainly can’t be accomplished by compromising the truth, which at its root is what ecumenism is all about. Look at all of these “joint statements” coming out these days which do nothing but attempt to compromise on the truth.
Well put.
 
It certainly can’t be accomplished by compromising the truth, which at its root is what ecumenism is all about. Look at all of these “joint statements” coming out these days which do nothing but attempt to compromise on the truth.
Who ever said the Truth needs to be compromised? May you please show me where the Truth was compromised under any ancient council? Or do we not consider any council as ecumenical? What “joint statements” and coming from who?
 
In short, because monks and elders who have seen (and commune) with the uncreated energies of God say so. Theoria is essential to the Orthodox tradition, and is the source and foundation of truth. I simply follow the words uttered by those who have “seen God” (Matthew 5:8). In this particular case, I am reminded of a letter from St. Justin Popovich :

orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/stjustin_council.aspx
I’m curious, are you affiliated with a particular Orthodox jurisdiction? I’m in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America.
 
Any Church council is better than no Church council.

If a 2013 council convenes they should address the small little issues, so as to become accustomed to working with one another. I have to agree with the Orthodox here, it will be difficult to council when there is no one visible head that all unite themselves too, can prove disastorous.

Unless they council, issues will never be addressed. The first order of business should not be the issues that divide them or solving problems. But council so as to place agreed upon rules on how a council should be conducted, issues debated, when and how issues should be communicated, the future locations etc…

A 2013 council should reveal how today’s council members and non members are to communicate to one another through a council, without a visible head. Which on paper even sounds hard to do?

Wow, that’s a tuff issue for anybody to convene a Holy Council to council without a visible head. A body structure would need to be set up for such a council to commence IMHO.
 
Wow, that’s a tuff issue for anybody to convene a Holy Council to council without a visible head. A body structure would need to be set up for such a council to commence IMHO.
I think the Ecumenical Patriarch has been working on most of these issues for the last few decades. AFAIK, he is the one pushing it harder than anyone else, and heading up most of the organizing - which makes sense, since he is to some degree first among equals. It would seem a bit strange for say the Bulgarian Orthodox Patriarch to be the one convening such a council.
 
I don’t see how you can reject ecumenism. The claim that it is “unpatristic” is nonsense. The Fathers over and over again reached out to seek unity with those who shared basic convictions about who God is and what God has done in Jesus Christ. The Fathers refused to compromise those basic convictions, but they are not at stake here.
There are plenty of things at stake. Ecumenism is just another attack on hesychasm. Many of our own clergy have neglected and suppressed the teaching of such a thing. This is what gives the Orthodox their strength - the foundation on which our faith is built. Ecumenism, in its acceptance of various spiritual traditions, leaves no room for such a thing.
Furthermore, many Orthodox seem now to believe that the Christological divisions were unnecessary. What I find absolutely bizarre and incomprehensible is the notion that the East/West divisions are somehow more fundamental than the disagreements over the two natures of Christ that divide Chalcedonian and “Oriental” Orthodox. (You may be among those who still think that the Orientals are heretics. If so, then your position is at least consistent.)
The “Orientals” are not Orthodox, and anyone who would agree with such a thing opposes not only the grace-filled monks of the age, but the fathers of the Church. St. John of Damascus states :

The Egyptians, who are also called Schismatics and Monophysites : separated from the Orthodox Church on the pretext of the document approved at Chalcedon and known as the Tome. They have been called Egyptians, because it was the Egyptians who first started this form of heresy during the reigns of the Emperors Marcian and Valentinian; in every other way they are Orthodox. Because they were attached to Dioscoros of Alexandria, who was deposed by the Synod in Chalcedon for advocating the teachings of Eutyches, they opposed the Synod and fabricated countless charges against it to the best of their ability. We have taken up these charges in this book and sufficiently refuted them, showing them to be clumsy and stupid. Their leaders were Theodosios of Alexandria, from whom derive the Theodosians, and James [Baradaios] of Syria, from whom the Jacobites derive. Privy to them, and supporters and champions were Severos, the corrupter from Antioch, and John [Philoponos] the Tritheite, who toiled on vain things; they denied the mystery of our common salvation.They wrote many things against the God-inspired teaching of the 630 Fathers of Chalcedon, and laid many snares, so to speak, and “stumbling blocks by the path”(Psalm 139:6) for those who were perishing by their pernicious heresy. Nevertheless,even though they teach that there are particular substances, they confound the mystery of the Incarnation. We considered it necessary to discuss their impiety in brief, adding short notes in refutation of their godless and abominable heresy. I shall set forth the teachings, or rather, ravings, of their champion John, in which they take so much pride.
Well, I haven’t seen the uncreated energies of God. But I grew up under the influence of my grandmother, who did claim to have direct experience of God and used that to support some pretty destructive and savage behavior. What I trust is the work of the Holy Spirit I have seen in the lives of Christians of many traditions. To deny that would, for me (I am not judging others), be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
When a tree produces bad fruit, there is no blasphemy is denying the presence of the Holy Spirit. How else would the Church defend herself against heresy? The vast majority of people on the globe who claim to have divine experience are, in fact, operating under a spirit of prelest. On this topic, St. Anthony of Kiev says :

Weak faith and carelessness are expressions of irreligiousness in people. But even a pious person is not immune to spiritual sickness if he does not have a wise guide – either a living person or a spiritual writer. This sickness is called spiritual delusion, or imagining oneself to be near to God and to the realm of the divine and supernatural. Even zealous ascetics in monasteries are sometimes subject to this delusion, but of course, laymen who are zealous in external struggle undergo it much more frequently. Surpassing their acquaintances in spiritual struggles of prayer and fasting, they imagine that they are seers of divine visions, or at least of dreams inspired by grace. In every event of their lives, they see special, intentional directions from God or their guardian angel. And then they start imagining that they are God’s elect, and often try to foretell the future. The Holy Fathers armed themselves against nothing so fiercely as against this sickness – spiritual delusion”.

The biggest difference between Orthodoxy and western Christianity is its understanding of how one arrives at truth. In the west, concepts such as infallible Scripture, infallible papal declarations, and infallible councils exist. This is not the case in Orthodoxy, whose understanding is derived from theosis (the third and final stage of salvation) - where man beholds the uncreated light of God. The faithful, in such a state, may write or speak at councils (which, of course, will reflect their inner light), but this revelation alone is the source of truth. It is not a mere prayerful experience, but a miraculous occurrence that Orthodox across the globe undergo (and have undergone for thousands of years).
 
So God wills His Church to be divided based on “fear” of taking any risks?
I think that is a very bold and ecumenical assumption [to say the Church is divided]. Can the Church of Christ be anything but one?
 
I’m curious, are you affiliated with a particular Orthodox jurisdiction? I’m in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America.
I am of the Orthodox Church in America - where I was baptized and chrismated (though I have spent time a good deal of time in both Greek and Antiochian parishes).
 
They call themselves Orientals Orthodox and they call you Eastern Orthodox, “Orthodox” is just a word. The question is Who is the True Orthodox?
.

The “Orientals” are not Orthodox, and anyone who would agree with such a thing opposes not only the grace-filled monks of the age, but the fathers of the Church. St. John of Damascus states :

The Egyptians, who are also called Schismatics and Monophysites : separated from the Orthodox Church on the pretext of the document approved at Chalcedon and known as the Tome. They have been called Egyptians, because it was the Egyptians who first started this form of heresy during the reigns of the Emperors Marcian and Valentinian; in every other way they are Orthodox. Because they were attached to Dioscoros of Alexandria, who was deposed by the Synod in Chalcedon for advocating the teachings of Eutyches, they opposed the Synod and fabricated countless charges against it to the best of their ability. We have taken up these charges in this book and sufficiently refuted them, showing them to be clumsy and stupid. Their leaders were Theodosios of Alexandria, from whom derive the Theodosians, and James [Baradaios] of Syria, from whom the Jacobites derive. Privy to them, and supporters and champions were Severos, the corrupter from Antioch, and John [Philoponos] the Tritheite, who toiled on vain things; they denied the mystery of our common salvation.They wrote many things against the God-inspired teaching of the 630 Fathers of Chalcedon, and laid many snares, so to speak, and “stumbling blocks by the path”(Psalm 139:6) for those who were perishing by their pernicious heresy. Nevertheless,even though they teach that there are particular substances, they confound the mystery of the Incarnation. We considered it necessary to discuss their impiety in brief, adding short notes in refutation of their godless and abominable heresy. I shall set forth the teachings, or rather, ravings, of their champion John, in which they take so much pride.

When a tree produces bad fruit, there is no blasphemy is denying the presence of the Holy Spirit. How else would the Church defend herself against heresy? The vast majority of people on the globe who claim to have divine experience are, in fact, operating under a spirit of prelest. On this topic, St. Anthony of Kiev says :

Weak faith and carelessness are expressions of irreligiousness in people. But even a pious person is not immune to spiritual sickness if he does not have a wise guide – either a living person or a spiritual writer. This sickness is called spiritual delusion, or imagining oneself to be near to God and to the realm of the divine and supernatural. Even zealous ascetics in monasteries are sometimes subject to this delusion, but of course, laymen who are zealous in external struggle undergo it much more frequently. Surpassing their acquaintances in spiritual struggles of prayer and fasting, they imagine that they are seers of divine visions, or at least of dreams inspired by grace. In every event of their lives, they see special, intentional directions from God or their guardian angel. And then they start imagining that they are God’s elect, and often try to foretell the future. The Holy Fathers armed themselves against nothing so fiercely as against this sickness – spiritual delusion”.

The biggest difference between Orthodoxy and western Christianity is its understanding of how one arrives at truth. In the west, concepts such as infallible Scripture, infallible papal declarations, and infallible councils exist. This is not the case in Orthodoxy, whose understanding is derived from theosis (the third and final stage of salvation) - where man beholds the uncreated light of God. The faithful, in such a state, may write or speak at councils (which, of course, will reflect their inner light), but this revelation alone is the source of truth. It is not a mere prayerful experience, but a miraculous occurrence that Orthodox across the globe undergo (and have undergone for thousands of years).
 
I think the Ecumenical Patriarch has been working on most of these issues for the last few decades. AFAIK, he is the one pushing it harder than anyone else, and heading up most of the organizing - which makes sense, since he is to some degree first among equals. It would seem a bit strange for say the Bulgarian Orthodox Patriarch to be the one convening such a council.
That is interesting, Do you think the one organizing the council is the one who will be made the head of the council? I don’t see a body acting without a visible head, for how else can a visible body function without a visible head?

In all cases should such a council convene, Orthodox will reveal its true colors if and when she objects to the invented headship during council debates which could weaken it from within. This venture has to be a difficult path. If the councils move in the Spirit of Love and unity it has a chance? But if it councils to settle past scores and blame it will prove very difficult? If anything celebrate the mysteries together so that common ground can be sought.
 
I think that is a very bold and ecumenical assumption [to say the Church is divided]. Can the Church of Christ be anything but one?
Well hate to rain on your parade,but Christ Church here on earth is anything,but united as one.
 
Mark of Ephesus;8994812]The biggest difference between Orthodoxy and western Christianity is its understanding of how one arrives at truth.
Lets not confuse revealed doctrine of the sacraments, scripture and Tradition, with philosophical theologies as one arriving at Truth.
In the west, concepts such as infallible Scripture, infallible papal declarations, and infallible councils exist.
This is true, but this is not a way of the West arriving at Truth, Infalliblility protects already revealed Truth from changing or falling into error into foreign philosophical mindsets contrary to Apostolic revelation and every wind of doctrine developed by man.
This is not the case in Orthodoxy, whose understanding is derived from theosis (the third and final stage of salvation) - where man beholds the uncreated light of God. The faithful, in such a state, may write or speak at councils (which, of course, will reflect their inner light), but this revelation alone is the source of truth. It is not a mere prayerful experience, but a miraculous occurrence that Orthodox across the globe undergo (and have undergone for thousands of years).
I don’t understand your theology here, if a man beholds the uncreated light of God, this man can speak infallible, on matter of Truth?

Did not Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Charles Russel and others pretend to possess this same concept of theology?

I am having trouble relating a monks discipline and enlightenment with revelations of Jesus Christ that are doctrinal revelations.

Does not holy orders, sacraments possess revealed Truth and the “uncreated energies of God”? because from these the heavenly light is given with grace.
 
Well hate to rain on your parade,but Christ Church here on earth is anything,but united as one.
That’s a complicated statement but true, if disunity pertains to the physical members. But spiritually by the Sacraments, Holy orders, Liturgies all reflect unity in the body of Christ.

Man can never separate what God has joined together.

A thought in passing, In the Roman Catholic Church all bishops are united as one united to the Popes, including the Eastern Catholic Rites who are in “Communion” with the Popes, this is a great unity. but set apart from both East and West.

East by our Orthodox brothers, who in themselves are authocephalous (independent self governing Church’s) and sometimes divided among each other.

In the West we have our Separated Brethren in the complicated diversed communities of protestantism.

How could one council this status body of believers? Jesus!

I find the 2013 council facing such difficult circumstances, but not mirrored.
 
That’s a complicated statement but true, if disunity pertains to the physical members. But spiritually by the Sacraments, Holy orders, Liturgies all reflect unity in the body of Christ.

Man can never separate what God has joined together.

A thought in passing, In the Roman Catholic Church all bishops are united as one united to the Popes, including the Eastern Catholic Rites who are in “Communion” with the Popes, this is a great unity. but set apart from both East and West.

East by our Orthodox brothers, who in themselves are authocephalous (independent self governing Church’s) and sometimes divided among each other.

In the West we have our Separated Brethren in the complicated diversed communities of protestantism.

How could one council this status body of believers? Jesus!

I find the 2013 council facing such difficult circumstances, but not mirrored.
Yes I understand how Christ Church is united under specific aspects as you stated. But I totally agree with the remainder of your message.
 
That is interesting, Do you think the one organizing the council is the one who will be made the head of the council?
These are the kind of questions I was hoping to find answers to here, rather than getting mired in the irrelevant bickering that has started to happen. But it’s obviously that sort of thing that such a council would have to overcome, which will be a challenge since the last such council was many centuries ago.

My personal guess is that if the council is held on neutral ground, or in territory that is explicitly under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarch, that he would have the honor of opening the council. If it’s in another patriarch’s territory, the same honor would go to that leader. But in order to ensure the success of the council, I suspect the EP has plans to quickly elect a president of the council, preferably from one of the other churches, to run the bureaucratic aspects of the council.

I would also caution against applying a Catholic approach to understanding this process. Our general understanding is that the pope is the sure guide against which we can measure whether a bishop or an idea has strayed from the faith - at least until such time as that pope is declared a heretic and antipope. In contrast, the Orthodox understanding is that the Church is large, organic, and fairly unchanging body without a visible head. You can identify deviation from the faith simply by seeing the acceptance of the bishop or idea by the rest of the Church.

For this reason, you’re not going to see a council leader exercising authority like a pope or a US Speaker of the House. If 55% of bishops at the council are in favor of something, and 45% are opposed, it will NOT mean the matter has been decided. There will have to be broad agreement among those at the council for a measure to be accepted. On some issues, a bishop may vote against, but accept that in spite of his misgivings, the will of the Church is reflected by the overwhelming vote in favor. On other issues, I expect one or more bishops to walk out. So long as such factions are very small, I think the declarations of the council will generally be accepted.

As you can see, it won’t really matter who is running the council (other than the wrong person could really botch the matter and sow discord). What matters is whether the bishops in attendance are in agreement on the issues.
 
Digitonomy;8996279] As you can see, it won’t really matter who is running the council (other than the wrong person could really botch the matter and sow discord). What matters is whether the bishops in attendance are in agreement on the issues.
So any decision the council finds, does not necessarily bind them all as one, because each Church is an independent head from each other. Who can accept or reject a councils findings.

For example “Contraception”. How could a headless council rule here? Will contraception be allowed only to those independent church heads **who do not believe **it is evil, and rejected by those independent church heads **who believe it **is evil? So all is well because each head can or cannot accept contraception? This is a displayed unity?

Can you give a mocked idea of how this council would address and rule on contraception when their are two oppossing Church’s pro and anti?

As far as the Pope is concerned the Popes does not meddle with any one Bishops Church’s. These bishops all have a freedom of autonomy from the Popes. The Pope is the cause of these independent bishops and Church’s in unity, although possessing different languages, cultures and rites. So I would agree with you, there is a difference in approach of councils from the West that does not apply without a headship of unity.
 
So any decision the council finds, does not necessarily bind them all as one, because each Church is an independent head from each other. Who can accept or reject a councils findings.
That is basically true, and in the past there have been cases where the bishops present overreached. When they returned to their home territories, the churches there were unwilling to accept the new declarations of the recent council, even though their representative bishops had agreed to them. Thus it is important to have widespread acceptance, virtual unanimity, in the decisions of the council. And the bishops must be careful not to stray from the whole of the Church.
Gabriel of 12:
So all is well because each head can or cannot accept contraception? This is a displayed unity?
Clearly all is not well when there is profound disagreement over whether something is a sin. But not everything is clear-cut, and agreement on issues sometimes takes time, whether east or west.
Gabriel of 12:
Can you give a mocked idea of how this council would address and rule on contraception when their are two oppossing Church’s pro and anti?
If there is not agreement, I don’t think in the end the council would address it. It would remain a matter of personal conscience - or an area where the faithful would look to their bishop for guidance.
Gabriel of 12:
As far as the Pope is concerned…
Since the pope is not relevant to the council or this thread, we can discuss that elsewhere.
 
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