Great and Holy Council, 2013?

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Willing to find? :ehh:
Mickey, when you disagree with me, it would help if you would explain how you disagree and give reasons.

Otherwise we don’t have much of a conversation, do we?

I can’t imagine what you find to disagree with in the above description, especially given that you are Orthodox and not a Calvinist:D. I can understand a Calvinist saying “no one is willing to see the truth–God changes your heart.” But even in that view, God changes your heart to make it willing to see truth it didn’t see before. And you aren’t a Calvinist. . . .

Edwin
 
It was a matter of truth…not compromise.
You assume that the two are opposed to each other. The evidence is solidly against you.

When Athanasius insisted on the “homoousion,” many devout Christians who cared about preserving Sacred Tradition were concerned, because this language was historically associated with a form of modalism, and some of Athanasius’s theological allies appeared to be close to modalism. Eventually, a way was found to explain the homoousios while still preserving the distinction of persons. I don’t care whether you want to call this “compromise” or not. But whatever you call it, it’s what modern ecumenists are trying to do. It makes no sense to defend one and condemn the other. If one is compromise, the other is too. If one isn’t, the other isn’t.
It is very different. It is often heretical.
But you haven’t explained why and how.

Of course some things that go under the name “ecumenism” are heretical. But I know something of the work of well-known, mainstream Protestant ecumenists such as Lesslie Newbigin and Geoffrey Wainwright (I know Wainwright personally, though I’m not claiming we’re close friends). And that’s what I’m talking about when I defend ecumenism. The contribution of Orthodox ecumenists is pretty uniformly along these lines–even the Orthodox whom you anti-ecumenists regard as dangerous heretics for their ecumenism are in fact among the most conservative ecumenists out there. (John Zizioulas would be an excellent example.)

Edwin
 
You assume that the two are opposed to each other. The evidence is solidly against you.

When Athanasius insisted on the “homoousion,” many devout Christians who cared about preserving Sacred Tradition were concerned, because this language was historically associated with a form of modalism, and some of Athanasius’s theological allies appeared to be close to modalism. Eventually, a way was found to explain the homoousios while still preserving the distinction of persons. I don’t care whether you want to call this “compromise” or not. But whatever you call it, it’s what modern ecumenists are trying to do. It makes no sense to defend one and condemn the other. If one is compromise, the other is too. If one isn’t, the other isn’t.
But I think this is different. When dealing with God, there are many antinomies which need to be addressed. The Trinity was one of them, for the question which had to be addressed was: how can God be truly three but also truly one? The orthodox position was not really a compromise between differing views like the Sabellian heresy and the Arian heresy. Rather, it stood in contradistinction to both of them, which is why the term homoousion was used, because it denied any sort of subordinationism (unlike homoiousion, which was a true compromise between heteroousianism and homoousianism), and which was why the term hypostasis was used to describe the persons of the trinity, because this language made impossible any Sabellian understanding of the idea that the Father and the Son are consubstantial.

With the Christological controversies over the natures of Christ, we also have a similar process happening, but spanning over three councils. First, the teaching of the hypostatic union was declared Orthodox at the council of Ephesus (as opposed to the prosopic union of Nestorius). Cyril’s distinction between the terms nature and hypostasis, however, was rather vague, which led to the heresy taught by Eutyches, where the Word did not really become fully human at all, but only seemed to be man, an interpretation which the vagueness of Cyril’s one nature formulation allowed. This is where the Chalcedonian definition came into play, proclaiming that Jesus was in two natures, fully God and fully man. Unfortunately, vagueness in the meaning of nature had left the Chalcedonian interpretation open to a Nestorianizing tendency, which again had to be corrected at the Second Council of Constantinople.

It was only at the Second Council of Constantinople, that orthodox Christology was defined with great precision, making impossible both the Eutychian understanding of the Hypostatic union (because it was confessed that Christ was the hypostasis of the Word, consubstantial with man, and is consubstantial with the Father) but also making impossible a Nestorian interpretation of the Chalcedonian definition (here because it was written that the distinction of the natures exists only in contemplation, and that the natures themselves have no personal existence to them). Here we see the same process, where orthodox theology is brought to precision against the teaching of heresies, rather than a process of compromise between competing schools of thought. I honestly feel that compromise is foreign to the mindset of the church fathers.
 
You assume that the two are opposed to each other.
Sometimes yes…and in the case of most modern ecumenism…yes.
The evidence is solidly against you.
Not at all.
Of course some things that go under the name “ecumenism” are heretical.
Of course.
John Zizioulas would be an excellent example.
Do You mean Metropolitan John Zizioluas?

The heresy of modern day ecumenism is certainly not limited to the non-Orthodox.

Quo vadite, Orthodoxi Oecumenisti?"😦
 
it would help if you would explain how you disagree and give reasons.
I think Cavarodossi did a rather nice job of that. 🙂
Otherwise we don’t have much of a conversation, do we?
No one is forcing you to continue championing ecumenism on this thread.
God changes your heart to make it willing to see truth it didn’t see before.
I suppose that’s a rather scholastic understanding.

God changes the heart through a process of repentance and prayer and tears…metanoia.
 
Do You mean Metropolitan John Zizioluas?
Yes.

I note, again, your unwillingness actually to give reasons for your opinions, or to give one single example of the so-called heresy of ecumenists, Orthodox or otherwise.

Edwin
 
I think Cavarodossi did a rather nice job of that. 🙂
In which post? What argument specifically?
No one is forcing you to continue championing ecumenism on this thread.
Certainly not. But given that I am going to champion truth and reconciliation among Christians, you are “forcing” me to engage in the rather easy (if annoying) task of pointing out the utter emptiness of your assertions and your steadfast refusal to give substantive reasons for your opinions, rather than the much more challenging and interesting task of refuting substantive arguments.
I suppose that’s a rather scholastic understanding.
Indeed. It’s the Calvinist one, and Calvinists are a lot more scholastic than many of them want to admit!😛
God changes the heart through a process of repentance and prayer and tears…metanoia.
Agreed.

And wouldn’t you agree that repentance involves being “willing” to see truth that one did not previously see?

Edwin
 
I note, again, your unwillingness actually to give reasons for your opinions, or to give one single example of the so-called heresy of ecumenists, Orthodox or otherwise.
The examples are numerous an easily accessible. The burden of proof is on you to show that today’s modern day ecumenism is the same process as the truths revealed in the Holy and Great Councils.
 
But given that I am going to champion truth
You are a liberal Episcopalian attempting to champion the heresy of modern day ecumenism. 🤷
you are “forcing” me to engage in the rather easy (if annoying) task of pointing out the utter emptiness of your assertions
Arrogance does not strengthen your argument.
Indeed. It’s the Calvinist one
You are a Calvinist?
And wouldn’t you agree that repentance involves being “willing” to see truth that one did not previously see?
Repentance defies mechanical definition. It is a continual enactment of freedom, a movement forward, deriving from renewed choice and leading to restoration. The aim of the Christian is not even justification but a re-entry by sinner and saint alike into communion in which God and man meet once again and personal experience of divine life becomes possible. Both prodigal and saint are “repenting sinners.”
 
The examples are numerous an easily accessible.
Then how come you’re having trouble coming up with just one?

I have named three major figures in ecumenism: Lesslie Newbigin, Geoffrey Wainwright (both Protestant, from different traditions, Reformed and Methodist respectively), and Metropolitan John Zizioulas.

Give me one example in which these figures or people like them are compromising truth. Specifically, how does Metropolitan John compromise truth (since presumably you don’t think the Protestants have much truth to compromise in the first place!)? What truth is it and how is it being compromised specifically?

I have given several specific examples from the Councils to show that they “compromise” in a certain sense (not that they compromise truth, but that they clarify truth by compromising positions as previously held by various factions). So the ball is back in your court to show how mainstream ecumenism as represented by folks like Zizioulas “compromises” in any different way.

Edwin
 
You are a liberal Episcopalian attempting to champion the heresy of modern day ecumenism.
Labels with no substance. You haven’t shown how it is heretical. You haven’t given even one tiny example of a truth that is being compromised. Nothing but empty assertion after empty assertion.
You are a Calvinist?
No. Don’t know why you would conclude that. You are the one who apparently denies that a willingness to see new truth must precede conversion.
Repentance defies mechanical definition. It is a continual enactment of freedom, a movement forward, deriving from renewed choice and leading to restoration. The aim of the Christian is not even justification but a re-entry by sinner and saint alike into communion in which God and man meet once again and personal experience of divine life becomes possible. Both prodigal and saint are “repenting sinners.”
I don’t disagree with any of this. I think it’s beautiful, in fact.

Edwin
 
Labels with no substance. You haven’t shown how it is heretical. You haven’t given even one tiny example of a truth that is being compromised. Nothing but empty assertion after empty assertion.

No. Don’t know why you would conclude that. You are the one who apparently denies that a willingness to see new truth must precede conversion.

I don’t disagree with any of this. I think it’s beautiful, in fact.

Edwin
Amen

peace
 
I have named three major figures in ecumenism
And?
Give me one example in which these figures or people like them are compromising truth.
I think that participation in the NCC or WCC is bad ecumensim. That is just one of hundreds of examples. Do a search…you can read about these things on your own. 🙂
Specifically, how does Metropolitan John compromise truth
Did I say that he compromises the truth? I certainly did not. Stop putting words in my mouth.
since presumably you don’t think the Protestants have much truth to compromise in the first place!
Really? Is this what you assume that I presume? I will say once again that your arrogance does not further your argument.
I have given several specific examples from the Councils to show that they “compromise” in a certain sense
In a certain sense? Your perception of compromise is not compromise at all. Go back and re-read Cavarodossi’s post.
 
Metropolitan PHILARET of blessed memory, former First Hierarch of the Russian Orthdox Church Abroad, from his First Sorrowful Epistle (excerpt)

Let us grant that modern preachers of heresy are not so belligerent towards the Orthodox Church as the ancient ones were. However, that is not because their doctrines are nearer to Orthodox teaching, but because Protestantism and Ecumenism have built up in them the conviction that there is no One and True Church on earth, but only communities of men who are in varying degrees of error. Such a doctrine kills any zeal in professing what they take to be the truth, and therefore modern heretics appear to be less obdurate than the ancient ones. But such indifference to truth is in many respects worse than the capacity to be zealous in defense of an error mistaken for truth. Pilate, who said “What is truth?” could not be converted; but Saul, the persecutor of Christianity, became the Apostle Paul. That is why we read in the Book of Revelation the menacing words to the Angel of the Church of Laodicea: “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth” (iii. 15-16).
 
Saint Seraphim of Sarov

The Spiritual World

It is necessary by all means to try to keep one’s spiritual peace, and not to become provoked by insults from others. To do this, it is necessary always to restrain oneself from anger, and by careful watch to guard the mind and heart from unclean waverings.

Insults from others must be borne without disturbance; one must train oneself to be of such a nature, that one can react to insults as if they did not refer to oneself. Such an exercise can bring serenity to our heart and make it a dwelling of God Himself.

fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/seraphim_e.htm#n11

peace
 
Saint Seraphim of Sarov

The Spiritual World

It is necessary by all means to try to keep one’s spiritual peace, and not to become provoked by insults from others. To do this, it is necessary always to restrain oneself from anger, and by careful watch to guard the mind and heart from unclean waverings.

Insults from others must be borne without disturbance; one must train oneself to be of such a nature, that one can react to insults as if they did not refer to oneself. Such an exercise can bring serenity to our heart and make it a dwelling of God Himself.
“Acquire a peaceful spirit, and around you thousands will be saved.”
**St Seraphim of Sarov **
 
I think that participation in the NCC or WCC is bad ecumensim. That is just one of hundreds of examples.
What truth is being compromised?
Do a search…you can read about these things on your own.
I have. That’s why I have reached the conclusion that anti-ecumenical rhetoric is empty and based on prejudice rather than sound theology. You are confirming that impression with every post in which you refuse to give substance.

You have still given exactly 0 examples of compromised truth.
Did I say that he compromises the truth?
Well, if he doesn’t, who are these Orthodox ecumenists who do? You haven’t named one, any more than you have named one truth that is supposedly compromised.

Edwin
 
That’s why I have reached the conclusion that anti-ecumenical rhetoric is empty and based on prejudice rather than sound theology.
You have free will to reach that conclusion if you wish. 🤷

As a member and Priest of the Orthodox Church, I believe that the Church in which I was baptized and brought up in is in very truth the Church, that is, the true Church and only Church. I believe this for many reasons: by my personal conviction and by the inner testimony of the Spirit which breathes in the sacraments of the Church and by all that I could learn from Scripture and from the universal tradition of the Church. I am therefore compelled to regard all other Christian churches as deficient, and in many cases I can identify these deficiencies accurately enough. Therefore, for me, Christian reunion is simply universal conversion to Orthodoxy. I have no confessional loyalty; my loyalty belongs to Una Sancta.
Father Georges Florovsky
 
If someone thinks their Church has the fullness of truth and is the Church founded by Christ, why would one want to comprise or water down? Do ecumenists on both Catholic and Orthodox side don’t think they have the fullness of truth? I never get that one.
 
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