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jack63
Guest
It’s a good article, but times have changed since then. Major issues have come to light. It was written in 2001.
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StarMapp
Guest
I’m assuming the post information is correct as posted.
I’m still way back here trying to understand how he got past RELIGIOSORUM INSTITUTIO. This document claims to have been born out of years of past references and documents, the earliest 1931. So we can see that as early as this, it was recognized the need for instructional guidelines to screen out candidates for religious “Catholic” life. I think the emphasis is required, as there are many differences between Protestant and Catholic priests, a few as far as the Anglican church dealing on differences of fundamental principles, which are a roadblock to ecumenical progress today. We can see that this instruction, in one form of progress, existed when he was ordained to the Catholic Church.
It looks like someone got through the sieve.
https://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/CCL1961R.HTM
I’m still way back here trying to understand how he got past RELIGIOSORUM INSTITUTIO. This document claims to have been born out of years of past references and documents, the earliest 1931. So we can see that as early as this, it was recognized the need for instructional guidelines to screen out candidates for religious “Catholic” life. I think the emphasis is required, as there are many differences between Protestant and Catholic priests, a few as far as the Anglican church dealing on differences of fundamental principles, which are a roadblock to ecumenical progress today. We can see that this instruction, in one form of progress, existed when he was ordained to the Catholic Church.
It looks like someone got through the sieve.
https://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/CCL1961R.HTM
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
This is an awfully big assumption. There are plenty of married men with all kinds of sexual kinks and dysfunctions out there. Of course they usually hide it, but a man being married or not married really doesn’t tell me anything about whether he might have gay or bi tendencies or enjoy kinky interactions with hookers or molest children, including his own children.
I note that quite a few of the Protestant and Jewish clergy who have been accused of sex crimes and indiscretions were indeed married.
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Cloisters
Well-known member
Here’s a very recent article about an Orthodox priest. He married before going to the seminary.
What a year for Endicott priest: New vocation, new wife, new challenges
Nathaniel Choma is the new pastor of St. Mary’s Orthodox Church.
amp.pressconnects.com
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goout
Guest
No assumptions. I am speaking generally, or statistically.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
They make them pastors right after they are ordained? Don’t they have to get some experience first?
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babochka
Guest
There are also celibate priests who argue for a married priesthood. And married priests who live out both vocations happily and well. And celibate priests who joyfully live out their vocation to celibacy.
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InThePew
Guest
I suppose a more accurate way of expressing it would be that some orders place a great emphasis on community life than others. With monastic/contemplative orders, a strong emphasis on community life is to be expected similarly, I know a Capuchin who once told me that missing a community meal was considered serious! In contrast, some missionary priests can end up living and/or working on their own. In other cases, while the members of an order may live together, their different work and schedules makes them more like diocesans - albeit that they may share their prayer life (including masses) together more. Of course this can also come about as a result of the way an order is in a particular province or just the way some of its members in that province are.
Cloisters
Well-known member
Within the two years I had at the Catholic high school, our parish rectory held a Christmas open house. I am wanting to say that this event occurred after the Senior Search retreat in the fall, because I was benchmarking the rectory in the book with this in my (then) parish. Here’s an article on a recent open house:
https://www.kystandard.com/content/st-joe-rectory-holds-open-house
Our parish priests took my literary ambitions in stride. (All three of them stated they were too busy for a wife). One time I was waiting in the stair hall for the pastor (we had an appointment). The two assistant pastors were joking about my book. One of them went upstairs to his room, saying “I don’t know…she’s got that book on her mind.” To which the newbie priest looked up at him and said, “Just put a tie on the door.”
https://www.kystandard.com/content/st-joe-rectory-holds-open-house
Our parish priests took my literary ambitions in stride. (All three of them stated they were too busy for a wife). One time I was waiting in the stair hall for the pastor (we had an appointment). The two assistant pastors were joking about my book. One of them went upstairs to his room, saying “I don’t know…she’s got that book on her mind.” To which the newbie priest looked up at him and said, “Just put a tie on the door.”
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dochawk
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There are also countless examples of EC and EO families with generation after generation of priests, with each encouraging their sons.
Citing individual priests’ opinions can never get us to a general answer on thius.
It is uncommon in the US for an Orthodox parish to be able to have two priests. Typically, the priest supports himself with a full time job. The parishes are quire small.
hawk
guanophore said:
Tis_Bearself
Patron
If the parishes are small, that explains how the priest has time to work a full time job and also spend time getting to know individual parishioners.
I do wish we in the Latin Church could somehow get enough priests that you didn’t have to be dying to get a piece of one’s time. Calling up the rectory for last rites is about the only way you can guarantee you’ll get the priest and not whatever deacon or staff member can handle it.
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otjm
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You need to meet more priests.
I am 72, have had relatives who were ordained, and have met and gotten to know numerous other priests.
He is not that far off the mark on his commentary.
I am 72, have had relatives who were ordained, and have met and gotten to know numerous other priests.
He is not that far off the mark on his commentary.
Cloisters
Well-known member
Sounds like their aim – or particular circumstances – lead to a more family-type atmosphere. In that case, the priest being married and a working man gives an example. Hopefully, a win-win situation.
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jack63
Guest
A few more points for discussion
-First, I have no doubt there are many isolated diocesan priests out there in the US. Longenecker is right about this. About 30% of the US is either rural or smaller cities/towns (population <50k). There will basically be no chance for a community of priests in the these areas. Even in the urban area where I grew up which has a population greater than 100k, priests from the various churches only lived together about half the time.
-Orders predominantly serve major urban areas with large communities of priests. Longenecker is right about this too. For example this is clearly seen in a map of the Jesuit Parishes in the US…
www.jesuits.org
Besides a handful of Jesuit parishes that serve native American Indians, all of these parishes are in or near major cities.
My question is this…Is part of the problem that these religious orders are not serving more rural areas? They have a built in community. You’d think that should help them in rural areas.
-First, I have no doubt there are many isolated diocesan priests out there in the US. Longenecker is right about this. About 30% of the US is either rural or smaller cities/towns (population <50k). There will basically be no chance for a community of priests in the these areas. Even in the urban area where I grew up which has a population greater than 100k, priests from the various churches only lived together about half the time.
-Orders predominantly serve major urban areas with large communities of priests. Longenecker is right about this too. For example this is clearly seen in a map of the Jesuit Parishes in the US…
Parishes - Jesuits.org
Our Work In the United States, there are 66 Jesuit parishes. A Jesuit parish is guided by the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola, which encourages people to reflect on their experiences and to discern God’s presence in their lives. Such a parish aims to nurture lay leadership as well as...
www.jesuits.org
Besides a handful of Jesuit parishes that serve native American Indians, all of these parishes are in or near major cities.
My question is this…Is part of the problem that these religious orders are not serving more rural areas? They have a built in community. You’d think that should help them in rural areas.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
The large orders are suffering from declines in their enrollment also, and can’t serve as many places as they would probably like to.
Cloisters
Well-known member
Hence the reason for the new diocesan congregations springing up all over the map. The “big box” orders can’t deliver, so we’re seeing “mom and pop store” communities arising from diocesan need. And need is the reason for the community’s foundation to begin with – God trying to take care of His creation through His bishops.
As a founder, I have to take into consideration the demographics of a particular area before consenting to enter that area. If a novitiate is set up there, will there be enough funds to feed them? We also don’t want our recluses/poustiniki to be too far from civilization.
As a founder, I have to take into consideration the demographics of a particular area before consenting to enter that area. If a novitiate is set up there, will there be enough funds to feed them? We also don’t want our recluses/poustiniki to be too far from civilization.
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glencor63
Guest
Actually,
mandatory celibacy of Catholic priests in the Latin rite only began in the 11th century. The Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholic churches have always had both married and celibate clergy. The problem is there is no living memory of married priests in the Latin rite. The laity has been carefully taught that marriage and the priesthood is incompatible, but this is untrue. What will need to happen is less dependence on the priesthood by the laity for spiritual matters. The laity will need to grow up and mature, accepting and exercising a greater responsibility for their faith and salvation.
mandatory celibacy of Catholic priests in the Latin rite only began in the 11th century. The Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholic churches have always had both married and celibate clergy. The problem is there is no living memory of married priests in the Latin rite. The laity has been carefully taught that marriage and the priesthood is incompatible, but this is untrue. What will need to happen is less dependence on the priesthood by the laity for spiritual matters. The laity will need to grow up and mature, accepting and exercising a greater responsibility for their faith and salvation.
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otjm
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Having been in college seminary in the mid 1960’s, I am well aware of the history. It certainly was not a banned topic.
The growth of the permanent deaconate is going to help in our spiritual growth as well.
And while I agree with you that people need to accept responsibility for their spiritual growth, that was not a topic one heard in church before Vatican 2, and is a topic visited only extremely infrequently now. Too many seem to think that most information is way over their heads; it is not. There is a plethora of good books and DVDs. Getting people to wake up to that takes some marketing, something they don’t seem to teach in seminary.
The growth of the permanent deaconate is going to help in our spiritual growth as well.
And while I agree with you that people need to accept responsibility for their spiritual growth, that was not a topic one heard in church before Vatican 2, and is a topic visited only extremely infrequently now. Too many seem to think that most information is way over their heads; it is not. There is a plethora of good books and DVDs. Getting people to wake up to that takes some marketing, something they don’t seem to teach in seminary.
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otjm
Guest
Part of the issue is that at least some of the orders were not set up to be parish priests, and they have been gradually withdrawing from parish work to go back to their original charisms.
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jack63
Guest
So…that (i.e. orders going back to their original charisms) seems different from the model described in the article by Fr Longenecker. It seems he sees orders as providing parish priests with the main benefit being that the orders have a community and don’t need marriage to provide that community.
I’m just curious…do you see that this model proposed in this article is not really using orders as they are meant to be used? Do you see orders as having a purpose other than providing parish priests.
I’m just curious…do you see that this model proposed in this article is not really using orders as they are meant to be used? Do you see orders as having a purpose other than providing parish priests.
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