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billcu1
Guest
I know the Bible speaks of a “Great Falling Away”. Is this the church speaking of the protestant reformation?
Bill
Bill
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Petaro
Guest
I don’t know. Still hanging on to the edge of the cliff myself. Just keep inside the gates and we’ll be ok.
A
abdulmasih
Guest
As I understand it, the great apostasy is a mass falling away from the Catholic faith shortly before antichrist.
T
thistle
Guest
D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:
Ver. 3-4. First, &c.[2] What is meant by this falling away, (in the Greek this apostacy) is uncertain, and differently expounded. St. Jerome and others understand it of a falling off of other kingdoms, which before were subject to the Roman empire; as if St. Paul said to them: you need not fear that the day of judgment is at hand, for it will not come till other kingdoms, by a general revolt, shall have fallen off, so that the Roman empire be destroyed. The same interpreters expound the sixth and seventh verses in like manner, as if when it is said, now you know[3] what withholdeth, &c. That is, you see the Roman empire subsisteth yet, which must be first destroyed. And when it is added, only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way; the sense, say these authors, is, let Nero and his successors hold that empire till it be destroyed, for not till then will the day of judgment come. Cornelius a Lapide makes this exposition so certain, that he calls it a tradition of the fathers, which to him seems apostolical. But we must not take the opinion of some fathers, in the exposition of obscure prophecies, where they advance conjectures (which others at the same time reject, or doubt of) to be apostolical traditions, and articles of faith, as the learned bishop of Meaux, Bossuet, takes notice on this very subject, in his preface and treatise on the Apocalypse, against Jurieux. St. Jerome indeed, and others, thought that the Roman empire was to subsist till the antichrist’s coming, which by the event most interpreters conclude to be a mistake, and that it cannot be said the Roman empire continues to this time. See Lyranus on this place, St. Thomas Aquinas, Salmeron, Estius, and many others; though Cornelius a Lapide, with some few, pretend the Roman empire still subsists in the emperors of Germany. We also find that divers of the ancient fathers thought that the day of judgment was just at hand in their time. See Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. Gregory the Great, &c. And as to this place, it cannot be said the fathers unanimously agree in their exposition. St. Chrysostom[4], Theodoret, St. Augustine in one of his expositions, by this falling off, and apostacy, understand antichrist himself, apostatizing from the Catholic faith. And they who expound it of Nero, did not reflect that this letter of St. Paul was written under Claudius, before Nero’s reign. According to a third and common exposition, by this revolt or apostacy, others understand a great falling off of great numbers from the Catholic Church and faith, in those nations where it was professed before; not but that, as St. Augustine expressly takes notice, the Church will remain always visible, and Catholic in its belief, till the end of the world. This interpretation we find in St. Cyril[5] of Jerusalem. (Catech. 15.) See also St. Anselm on this place, St. Thomas Aquinas, Salmeron, Estius, &c. In fine, that there is no apostolical tradition, as to any of the interpretations of these words, we may be fully convinced from the words of St. Augustine[6], lib. xx. de Civ. Dei. chap. 19. t. 7. p. 597. Nov. edit., where he says: For my part, I own myself altogether ignorant what the apostle means by these words; but I shall mention the suspicions of others, which I have read, or heard. Then he sets down the exposition concerning the Roman empire. He there calls that a suspicion and conjecture, which others say is an apostolical tradition. In like manner the ancient fathers are divided, as to the exposition of the words of the sixth and seventh verse, when it is said you know what hindereth; some understand that antichrist must come first. Others, that the before mentioned apostacy, or falling off from the Church, must happen before.
Ver. 3-4. First, &c.[2] What is meant by this falling away, (in the Greek this apostacy) is uncertain, and differently expounded. St. Jerome and others understand it of a falling off of other kingdoms, which before were subject to the Roman empire; as if St. Paul said to them: you need not fear that the day of judgment is at hand, for it will not come till other kingdoms, by a general revolt, shall have fallen off, so that the Roman empire be destroyed. The same interpreters expound the sixth and seventh verses in like manner, as if when it is said, now you know[3] what withholdeth, &c. That is, you see the Roman empire subsisteth yet, which must be first destroyed. And when it is added, only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way; the sense, say these authors, is, let Nero and his successors hold that empire till it be destroyed, for not till then will the day of judgment come. Cornelius a Lapide makes this exposition so certain, that he calls it a tradition of the fathers, which to him seems apostolical. But we must not take the opinion of some fathers, in the exposition of obscure prophecies, where they advance conjectures (which others at the same time reject, or doubt of) to be apostolical traditions, and articles of faith, as the learned bishop of Meaux, Bossuet, takes notice on this very subject, in his preface and treatise on the Apocalypse, against Jurieux. St. Jerome indeed, and others, thought that the Roman empire was to subsist till the antichrist’s coming, which by the event most interpreters conclude to be a mistake, and that it cannot be said the Roman empire continues to this time. See Lyranus on this place, St. Thomas Aquinas, Salmeron, Estius, and many others; though Cornelius a Lapide, with some few, pretend the Roman empire still subsists in the emperors of Germany. We also find that divers of the ancient fathers thought that the day of judgment was just at hand in their time. See Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. Gregory the Great, &c. And as to this place, it cannot be said the fathers unanimously agree in their exposition. St. Chrysostom[4], Theodoret, St. Augustine in one of his expositions, by this falling off, and apostacy, understand antichrist himself, apostatizing from the Catholic faith. And they who expound it of Nero, did not reflect that this letter of St. Paul was written under Claudius, before Nero’s reign. According to a third and common exposition, by this revolt or apostacy, others understand a great falling off of great numbers from the Catholic Church and faith, in those nations where it was professed before; not but that, as St. Augustine expressly takes notice, the Church will remain always visible, and Catholic in its belief, till the end of the world. This interpretation we find in St. Cyril[5] of Jerusalem. (Catech. 15.) See also St. Anselm on this place, St. Thomas Aquinas, Salmeron, Estius, &c. In fine, that there is no apostolical tradition, as to any of the interpretations of these words, we may be fully convinced from the words of St. Augustine[6], lib. xx. de Civ. Dei. chap. 19. t. 7. p. 597. Nov. edit., where he says: For my part, I own myself altogether ignorant what the apostle means by these words; but I shall mention the suspicions of others, which I have read, or heard. Then he sets down the exposition concerning the Roman empire. He there calls that a suspicion and conjecture, which others say is an apostolical tradition. In like manner the ancient fathers are divided, as to the exposition of the words of the sixth and seventh verse, when it is said you know what hindereth; some understand that antichrist must come first. Others, that the before mentioned apostacy, or falling off from the Church, must happen before.
T
thistle
Guest
continued…
And when St. Paul says, (ver. 7.) that he who now holdeth, do hold; some expound it, let him take care at the time of such trials, to hold, and preserve the true faith to the end. When the expositions are so different, as in this place, whosoever pretends to give a literal translation ought never to add words to the text, which determine the sense to such a particular exposition, and especially in the same print, as Mr. N. hath done on the seventh verse, where he translates, only let him that now holdeth the faith, keep it until he be taken out of the way. — And the man of sin[7] revealed, the son of perdition, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. He is called again, (ver. 8.) that wicked one…whom the Lord Jesus Christ shall kill with the spirit of his mouth. By all these words is described to us the great antichrist, about the end of the world, according to the unexceptionable authority and consent of the ancient fathers. It is as ridiculous as malicious to pretend, with divers later reformers, that the pope, and all the popes since the destruction of the Roman empire, are the great antichrist, the man of sin, &c. Grotius, Dr. Hammond, and divers learned Protestants, have confuted and ridiculed this groundless fable, of which more on the Apocalypse. It may suffice to observe here that antichrist, the man of sin, the son of perdition, the wicked one, according to all the ancients, is to be one particular man, not so many different men. That he is to come a little while before the day of judgment. That he will make himself be adored, and pretend to be God. What pope did so? That he will pretend to be Christ, &c. (Witham) — St. Augustine (de Civ. Dei. book xx. chap. 19.) says, that an attack would be made at one and the same time against the Roman empire and the Church. The Roman empire subsists as yet, in Germany, though much weakened and reduced. The Roman Catholic Church, notwithstanding all its losses, and the apostacy of many of its children, has always remained the same. (Calmet) — The two special signs of the last day will be a general revolt, and the manifestation of antichrist, both of which are so dependent on each other, that St. Augustine makes but one of both. What presumptive folly in Calvin and other modern reformers, to oppose the universal sentiments of the fathers both of the Latin and Greek Church! What inconsistency, to give such forced interpretations, not only widely different from the expositions of sound antiquity, but also widely different from each other! The Church of God, with her head, strong in the promises of Jesus Christ, will persevere to the end, frustra circumlatrantibus hæreticis. (St. Augustine, de util. cred. chap. xvii.) — In the temple. Either that of Jerusalem, which some think he will rebuild; or in some Christian Church, which he will pervert to his own worship; as Mahomet has done with the churches of the east. (Challoner)
And when St. Paul says, (ver. 7.) that he who now holdeth, do hold; some expound it, let him take care at the time of such trials, to hold, and preserve the true faith to the end. When the expositions are so different, as in this place, whosoever pretends to give a literal translation ought never to add words to the text, which determine the sense to such a particular exposition, and especially in the same print, as Mr. N. hath done on the seventh verse, where he translates, only let him that now holdeth the faith, keep it until he be taken out of the way. — And the man of sin[7] revealed, the son of perdition, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. He is called again, (ver. 8.) that wicked one…whom the Lord Jesus Christ shall kill with the spirit of his mouth. By all these words is described to us the great antichrist, about the end of the world, according to the unexceptionable authority and consent of the ancient fathers. It is as ridiculous as malicious to pretend, with divers later reformers, that the pope, and all the popes since the destruction of the Roman empire, are the great antichrist, the man of sin, &c. Grotius, Dr. Hammond, and divers learned Protestants, have confuted and ridiculed this groundless fable, of which more on the Apocalypse. It may suffice to observe here that antichrist, the man of sin, the son of perdition, the wicked one, according to all the ancients, is to be one particular man, not so many different men. That he is to come a little while before the day of judgment. That he will make himself be adored, and pretend to be God. What pope did so? That he will pretend to be Christ, &c. (Witham) — St. Augustine (de Civ. Dei. book xx. chap. 19.) says, that an attack would be made at one and the same time against the Roman empire and the Church. The Roman empire subsists as yet, in Germany, though much weakened and reduced. The Roman Catholic Church, notwithstanding all its losses, and the apostacy of many of its children, has always remained the same. (Calmet) — The two special signs of the last day will be a general revolt, and the manifestation of antichrist, both of which are so dependent on each other, that St. Augustine makes but one of both. What presumptive folly in Calvin and other modern reformers, to oppose the universal sentiments of the fathers both of the Latin and Greek Church! What inconsistency, to give such forced interpretations, not only widely different from the expositions of sound antiquity, but also widely different from each other! The Church of God, with her head, strong in the promises of Jesus Christ, will persevere to the end, frustra circumlatrantibus hæreticis. (St. Augustine, de util. cred. chap. xvii.) — In the temple. Either that of Jerusalem, which some think he will rebuild; or in some Christian Church, which he will pervert to his own worship; as Mahomet has done with the churches of the east. (Challoner)
R
ready
Guest
The Protestant reformation could be considered *the beginning *of a great apostasy or falling away. God bless you.
B
billcu1
Guest
Protestants aren’t considered Apostates are they?
T
thistle
Guest
APOSTASY. The total rejection by a baptized person of the Christian faith he once professed. The term is also applied in a technical sense to “apostates from religious life,” who without authorization leave a religious institute after perpetual vows with no intention of returning. (Etym. Latin apostasia, falling away or separation from God; from Greek apostasis, revolt, literally, a standing-off.)
R
ready
Guest
The Protestants of the Reformation were once Catholic, and as heretics, made the choice to leave the Catholic Church. Some saint has said that only Catholics are Christians. If this is true (and I believe it to be so), then Protestants are not just heretics, but apostates who aren’t even Christian --for a Christian follows ALL of Christ’s teachings. Protestants only follow some of His teachings, they don’t believe in everything we as Catholics believe. God bless you.
T
thistle
Guest
That is not true. Methodists, Lutheran, Anglicans etc ARE Christians. The Catholic Church accepts they are Christians.
Protestants are not heretics and not apostates.
M
mikekle
Guest
Yep, thats what I think too, its said near that time, there will be a great deception, which will cause ALOT of people to leave the church.
Personally, I believe it will be UFOs/ Aliens that will be this great deception, I strongly believe in the near future, some discovery will be made, which will appear to prove mankind was created by an extraterrestrial intelligence, majority of people will fall for this, as the ‘evidence’ will likely be pretty darn convincing, (but still false). I cant think of anything more perfect that would cause so many to leave the church.
Plus, once the mainstream media announces it, and Govt ‘experts’ agree with it, majority of the population will buy this, hook, line and sinker. LOL
I think thats why we see so many tv shows, movies, other references to UFOs/Aliens, etc in todays world, they are slowly getting people ready to hear this, getting them used to the idea…the percentage of people who believe in alien life in 2014 is nearly quadrupled compared to just 10 yrs ago…think what it will be in another 10 yrs…then, all the sudden the discovery is made…WALLAH!!!
L
linuxology
Guest
Blasphemy! Be careful who you condemn. You are walking on thin ice and not acting as Jesus would. Other denominations followers are Christian and possibly more so than many Luke warm catholics.
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randomusername
Guest
Means that people are gonna leave the Church en masse and join other religions or become athiests. All of Christianity is losing believers massively and Catholicism is dying off in pretty much every European country that it was still strong in a century ago. I think the End Times have already started or are starting. There are huge conflicts in the Middle East that are only getting bigger, Jerusalem is becoming a stone that cuts all who hold it, all we need to see next is a man coming along and bringing us peace in the Middle East.
Also one of the things says that two people will be killed by the anti-christ and the whole world will see it. Before the last century, that would seem impossible to people. Now we have TVs. One of the things is people running to and fro, we have invented cars and trains and planes in the last few centuries after riding horses for millennia. Things are lining up more than ever in the past for the End Times to start.
Also one of the things says that two people will be killed by the anti-christ and the whole world will see it. Before the last century, that would seem impossible to people. Now we have TVs. One of the things is people running to and fro, we have invented cars and trains and planes in the last few centuries after riding horses for millennia. Things are lining up more than ever in the past for the End Times to start.
M
mikekle
Guest
I agree, that increase in travel really confirms it imo. I cannot imagine an increase above and beyond what we see now, unless something comes along that allows people to travel at will, like a new technology (teleportation for example), I know many universities and research groups are working on this now and if such a thing becomes available to the public, that would be about the only thing that would increase travel from its current levels.
J
Joy2day
Guest
I think u r exactly right here, except to.further explain that it will be purported that the pope is the chief alien & the cardinals r clones in a massive alien race that has infiltrated the hierarchy of the church. Furthermore it will be realised that the aliens were responsible for abusing many if the children. This will be purported & believed, causing a great falling away of the fearful.
M
mikekle
Guest
I hate to say it, but people will probably believe the pope is an evil alien at some point in the deception!!!
I do find it kind of curious the Vatican seems to have such an interest in Space, as in the Lucifer telescope, and their other vested interests in outer space, seems like they know something rest of us do not and may be waiting and watching for something specific. Im going to try to find more info on the Vaticans interest in space, and see what I can learn.
M
Megan7
Guest
I would love to hear more about what you find out regarding the Vatican & space.
I have always wondered why they named the telescope lucifer??
Thanks.
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randomusername
Guest
Lucifer telescope? That’s a strange name for a telescope.
M
mikekle
Guest
I think this explains it pretty well, some amazing stuff!I would love to hear more about what you find out regarding the Vatican & space.
I have always wondered why they named the telescope lucifer??
Thanks.
infowars.com/vatican-astronomers-ramp-up-their-search-for-brother-extraterrestrial/
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