Great Lent in Eastern Catholic Churches

[Zekariya]

The point I am trying to make is The Gregorian calendar was imposed by Rome with no consultation or (name removed by moderator)ut from the East. Nobody in the West really cares when Easter is celebrated…for all intent and purpose Hallmark sets the date for Easter. If we plan on fixing a common celebration of the Feast of Feasts across Christendom the East’s (name removed by moderator)ut should be respected. My point was in all humility Rome should give in and take up celebrating Pascha according to the Orthodox reckoning and THEN come up with a plan for the future.

Agreed!

 

[dvdjs]

The point I am trying to make is The Gregorian calendar was imposed by Rome with no consultation or (name removed by moderator)ut from the East.

This idea of imposition is, again, contrary to history. Even to this day not all churches in the catholic communion use the Western calculation of Pascha, and in countries where the Eastern calculation is used Rome encourages the use of the local custom. Rome, in this case, has acted not only correctly, but also with humility.

Nobody in the West really cares when Easter is celebrated…for all intent and purpose Hallmark sets the date for Easter.

My experience is different.

If we plan on fixing a common celebration of the Feast of Feasts across Christendom the East’s (name removed by moderator)ut should be respected. My point was in all humility Rome should give in and take up celebrating Pascha according to the Orthodox reckoning and THEN come up with a plan for the future.

I think that this is a bad idea. The adjustment in the West was a conservative one that took pains to make sure that Pascha was being celebration according to the canons, and that the disruption to the liturgical cycle was minimized. Eastern churches as showing some movement in this direction as evidenced in the Aleppo statement and responses to it. I doubt that there is anything to be gained by going back to a Paschal reckoning that is unfaithful to the canons.

 

[Zekariya]

This idea of imposition is, again, contrary to history. Even to this day not all churches in the catholic communion use the Western calculation of Pascha, and in countries where the Eastern calculation is used Rome encourages the use of the local custom. Rome, in this case, has acted not only correctly, but also with humility.
My experience is different.

I think that this is a bad idea. The adjustment in the West was a conservative one that took pains to make sure that Pascha was being celebration according to the canons, and that the disruption to the liturgical cycle was minimized. Eastern churches as showing some movement in this direction as evidenced in the Aleppo statement and responses to it. I doubt that there is anything to be gained by going back to a Paschal reckoning that is unfaithful to the canons.

I see. That makes sense.

 

[Vico]

From the time the date of Pacha was set until the calendar reforms of Pope Gregory the date of Pacha was uniform throughout Christendom. The problem was the Pope changed the calendar on his own with no consultation with the EASTERN Churches.

Today the date of Easter means nothing to 99.999 of Western Christians…while in the East the date of Pascha is very important…why doesn’t the
West adopt the Eastern date of Easter until a proper Council can be called to make a permanent fix? Many Roman Catholics already celebrate on the Eastern calendar so I don’t see a problem with this (the Middle East, Greece, the Lebanon,etc.).

We know when and why the change was made and at the time there was schism.

All Christendom did not use the same Pascha all the time from Nicea to Gregory: it took several centuries before a common method of calculation was accepted. The Church of Alexandria used the Sunday after the 14th day of the Moon on or after equinox (21 March), but, the Church of Rome used 25 March and a different day of the moon. This persisted until Charlemagne (reign 800-814 A.D.) adopted the Alexandrian method. Even then, eastern-most Churches have used a calendar that computes Pascha differently a few times per 532 (4 * 7 * 19) year cycle.

Of course now there are three commonly used calendars:

Alexandrian Pascha + Julian Fixed
Alexandrian Pascha + Gregorian Fixed
Gregorian Pascha + Gregorian Fixed

 

[UncleBill]

This idea of imposition is, again, contrary to history. **Even to this day not all churches in the catholic communion use the Western calculation of Pascha, and in countries where the Eastern calculation is used Rome encourages the use of the local custom. Rome, in this case, has acted not only correctly, but also with humility.
My experience is different. **

** I think that this is a bad idea. The adjustment in the West was a conservative one that took pains to make sure that Pascha was being celebration according to the canons, and that the disruption to the liturgical cycle was minimized. ** Eastern churches as showing some movement in this direction as evidenced in the Aleppo statement and responses to it. I doubt that there is anything to be gained by going back to a Paschal reckoning that is unfaithful to the canons.

Yes…In the last 20 years or so this has been the custom…but only recently.

Not disruptive? Splitting the date that Christendom celebrates the Resurrection of the Saviour was not disruptive?
Celebrated according to the Canons? How often do the Latins and the Jews celebrate Easter and Passover on the same weekend? Hardly the Canons.

I have yet to see any Church follow the Alepo statement.

 

[dvdjs]

Yes…In the last 20 years or so this has been the custom…but only recently.

So dig back deeper …

Not disruptive? Splitting the date that Christendom celebrates the Resurrection of the Saviour was not disruptive?

As had been pointed out, different regions celebrated at different times even in the first year after Nicea I. The implementation of the prescriptions of Nicea I had, from the beginning, been handled independently. A little more history would lead to a little less of .

Celebrated according to the Canons? How often do the Latins and the Jews celebrate Easter and Passover on the same weekend? Hardly the Canons.

Nicea I prescribed that the feast be on Sunday, not the 14th of Nissan, coincident with Passover, as some had been doing. It also develop a method of reckoning that was independent of the Jewish feast. That is the meaning of the phrase “meta ton Ioudaion” - and if you have any doubt about that, read the Emperor’s letter promulgating the finding of the Council. Here is the same view of this matter expressed by EOs:
dneoca.org/articles/dateofpascha0593.html

I have yet to see any Church follow the Alepo statement.

I am not sure of your point. In light of the length of time that it took even for the Gregorian Calendar to take hold, Aleppo should be seen as just a moment ago. It is clear that there is an understanding among many EOs that the current approach to the calculation of Pascha is not correct and not faithful to the Nicean prescriptions. I don’t have any idea how long it would take to find a way to solve the problem.

 

[Patchunky]

in eastern europe all byzantine catholics use the julian calendar - in western europe, uk, france, germany im not sure.

In Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland, the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics use the Gregorian calendar.

In Ukrainian and in Ukrainian Catholic churches in Western Europe they use the Julian calendar.

 

[UncleBill]

In Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland, the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics use the Gregorian calendar.

In Ukrainian and in Ukrainian Catholic churches in Western Europe they use the Julian calendar.

I spent Pascha , Holy Week and Bright Week in Slovakia and the Czech Republic last year…Pascha was celebrated according to the Julian Calendar.

 

[Faustinas_frien]

When I was little (MANY years ago) I remember the bishop asked priests of each parish to have the congregation vote on which calendar to observe.

Some people felt you are not really celebrating Christmas being off on 12/25 but having to work on 1/7.

There were others who felt they always did and their relatives in the old country were celebrating together.

Back then some churches like NY, Chicago, Toronto were 1/2 and 1/2. I suppose over time things changed…I’m talking over 50 years ago.

Despite it all, lent and advent are 40 days prior no matter what calendar is used.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

This thread took quite the turn, but I think it’s quite a fruitful and interesting one!

I just wanted to thank all the contributors so far. I’m learning a lot more than bargained for!

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

The point I am trying to make is The Gregorian calendar was imposed by Rome with no consultation or (name removed by moderator)ut from the East. Nobody in the West really cares when Easter is celebrated…for all intent and purpose Hallmark sets the date for Easter. If we plan on fixing a common celebration of the Feast of Feasts across Christendom the East’s (name removed by moderator)ut should be respected. My point was in all humility Rome should give in and take up celebrating Pascha according to the Orthodox reckoning and THEN come up with a plan for the future.

I’m going to disagree on this point. Julian March 21 isn’t even anywhere near the vernal equinox. As dvdjs implied, the Julian Paschalion seems less true to the spirit of what the Nicaean fathers decided than the Gregorian…

We know when and why the change was made and at the time there was schism.

All Christendom did not use the same Pascha all the time from Nicea to Gregory: it took several centuries before a common method of calculation was accepted. The Church of Alexandria used the Sunday after the 14th day of the Moon on or after equinox (21 March), but, the Church of Rome used 25 March and a different day of the moon. This persisted until Charlemagne (reign 800-814 A.D.) adopted the Alexandrian method. Even then, eastern-most Churches have used a calendar that computes Pascha differently a few times per 532 (4 * 7 * 19) year cycle.

Of course now there are three commonly used calendars:

Alexandrian Pascha + Julian Fixed
Alexandrian Pascha + Gregorian Fixed
Gregorian Pascha + Gregorian Fixed

Great info! Thanks, Vico!

 

[SyroMalankara]

The point I am trying to make is The Gregorian calendar was imposed by Rome with no consultation or (name removed by moderator)ut from the East. Nobody in the West really cares when Easter is celebrated…for all intent and purpose Hallmark sets the date for Easter. If we plan on fixing a common celebration of the Feast of Feasts across Christendom the East’s (name removed by moderator)ut should be respected. My point was in all humility Rome should give in and take up celebrating Pascha according to the Orthodox reckoning and THEN come up with a plan for the future.

Disagree. The history of the creation of the Gregorian Calendar is quite evident that this was not a Roman creation with no (name removed by moderator)ut from the East!

I posted the following in another thread, but it applies here as well:
The Roman See is accused of coming up with this Gregorian Calendar on it’s own, but history shows that it was hardly an independent and “western” work. The mathematical skill and scholarship of this calendar was not found in the West, but in the East! The Chaldean and Syriac Churches produced the most learned astronomers - remember the wise men of the Holy Scriptures are Traditionally thought to be Chaldean/Assyrian/Persian as well. The credit actually goes to a retired (deposed illegally) Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Church who reconciled with Rome and lived (and died) in the Vatican - His Holiness Patriarch Ignatius Nimat Allah.

syriacstudies.com/2008/04/13/276-the-patriarch-nimat-allah-1587-2/

 

[FatherAlexius]

The Easterners (i.e. Orthodox and Eastern Catholic), at least in the Greek/Russian rites, calculate the day of Easter/Pascha differently from our Western brothers. In the Western church, it is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Northern Vernal (Spring) Equinox.

In the East, it is slightly different. Since the Lord is said to be crucified during/after the Jewish holiday of Passover, the East calculates the date for Easter as the first Sunday etc that also occurs after Passover.

The Julian/Old Calendar issue does not really come into effect for determining Easter. The Old Calendar churches celebrate all non-Pascha related holidays and observances 13 days later than their New Calendar (Gregorian) Counterparts, (why some Orthodox celebrate the Nativity on the 7th and others on the 25th)

I do admit that I am approaching this from an Orthodox background, so the particulars of my answer may not apply.

 

[Zekariya]

Father bless! Welcome to the forum, FatherAlexius!

 

[Vico]

The Easterners (i.e. Orthodox and Eastern Catholic), at least in the Greek/Russian rites, calculate the day of Easter/Pascha differently from our Western brothers. In the Western church, it is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Northern Vernal (Spring) Equinox.

In the East, it is slightly different. Since the Lord is said to be crucified during/after the Jewish holiday of Passover, the East calculates the date for Easter as the first Sunday etc that also occurs after Passover.

The Julian/Old Calendar issue does not really come into effect for determining Easter. The Old Calendar churches celebrate all non-Pascha related holidays and observances 13 days later than their New Calendar (Gregorian) Counterparts, (why some Orthodox celebrate the Nativity on the 7th and others on the 25th)

I do admit that I am approaching this from an Orthodox background, so the particulars of my answer may not apply.

The Antiochian Orthodox have given this clarification that Pascha date is not calculated with reference to the Jewish Passover.
Question

I’ve heard that the reason the Orthodox usually celebrate the Resurrection later than Protestants and Roman Catholics is because we wait until after the Jewish Passover. This year the Jews observed Passover on March 27. Western Christians celebrated Pascha**†** after that, on April 3, so why did we wait until May 1?In brief

Our observance of the Resurrection is related to the “Passover of the Jews”† in a historical and theological way, but our calculation does not depend on when the modern-day Jews celebrate. The reason why Orthodox and Western Christians celebrate at different times is because we still go by the old Julian calendar in calculating the date of Pascha, even though we go by the new calendar for all the fixed feasts (like Christmas and so on). Protestants and Roman Catholics use the Gregorian Calendar for everything.
antiochian.org/date-of-pascha.html