Greed in the Catholic Church?

[Church_Militant]

Check the Vatican website for their financial statements. The guy’s talking out his hat.

 

[ACL]

What the bible has to say about this -

Luke 10:7 Stay in the same house and eat and drink what is offered to you, for the laborer deserves his payment. Do not move about from one house to another.

1 Corinthians 9:11 If we have sown spiritual seed for you, is it a great thing that we reap a material harvest from you?

anyways as others have already mentioned -
a) the stuff is not the Pope’s personal belongings, it goes onto the next person who becomes Pope.
b) the money has been collected over 2000 years not overnight
c) Land area under Papal governance has decreased in Italy from the middle ages to it’s present size as the Vatican

 

[Apologist78]

The president of the US sits in that mansion while people ourside starve. Does this invalidate his office? Does this mean he is mean and hates the poor?

Should we sell the Whitehouse and give all the money to the poor? Should we sell the Capital Building and give all the money to the poor of the US? Is there anyone who would suggest such nonsense? Then why ought we sell the Vatican? Same principle.

There is an underlying principle when people complain about the alleged “Vatican Wealth” and “Sell the Vatican to give money to the poor.” People resent the fact that the Church has a certain moral and political authority in the world. Like it or not, to a greater or lesser degree, the Church does influence world events, and people. Part of that influence comes becasue of the fact that the pope is not only a spiritual leader, but a political one as well, by the fact that he heads a country. If you take that away from him, he retains his spiritual authority, but he will loose much of his political influence. His Spiritual influence is tied in with the Political influence, since owning land gives him a certain bite to his authority as a spiritual leader.

Thus when people speak such nonsense of “Selling the Vatican” or “Gold Thrones” what they are really saying is they resent the power of the Church, and the influence it has. They also know that if the Church were to ever sell the Vatican, the power and influence would be gone, which is what they really want.

People would not suggest such nonsense as selling the Whitehouse to give money to the poor, they know it is nonsense to suggest selling the Vatican. But now that I explained the underlying principle behind the statement, it should shed light on the real issuse, which is not the “Wealth” or “Vatican” at all, but their resentment of the influence of the Church on the world.

 

[MarcoPolo]

John Martignoni addressed this in one of his newsletters. Full article here. Excerpt below:About 20 years ago, Peter Drucker, the management consultant, concluded that the three most efficient organizations in history were General Motors, the 19th-century Prussian Army, and the Catholic Church. He put the Church on his list because it manages to hold a worldwide organization together with an exceptionally small central headquarters. For the 1.1 billion Catholics, there are about 1,700 people working in the [Vatican]. As Drucker pointed out, if the same ratio were applied to our government in Washington, D.C., there would be 500 federal employees working in the capital, as opposed to roughly 500,000.

 

[Teflon93]

It should be noted that Judas raised similar arguments, for similar reasons.

Look where it got him.

 

[jmcrae]

Hi everyone. I am chatting with someone who claims that the Catholic Church can’t be true because the “Pope sits on a throne of gold while people starve.” What can I say to answer this accusation?

Even if he does sit on a throne of gold (I don’t think he does, really) it’s not his throne, first of all, so he doesn’t have the right to sell it - it belongs to the people of the church.

And then what about the person who buys the gold throne? Shouldn’t he have given his money to the poor, instead of buying a golden Papal throne that he is not even allowed to sit on, because he is not the Pope?

By the way, the Catholic Church does more for the poor than any other organization in the world, even without selling off its treasures to people who would have no use for them.

 

[Teflon93]

By the way, the Catholic Church does more for the poor than any other organization in the world, even without selling off its treasures to people who would have no use for them.

You can’t swing a cat if you work with the poor and not hit a Catholic organization.

Very similar to the pro-life movement.

Others talk, Catholics walk. May it ever be so.

I always wonder what motivates the snide to belittle those who really do devote their lives to the poor. At our Eucharistic Congress a couple of weeks ago, Father Groeschel (think I’m spelling that right) noted that people sometimes tell him they feel sorry for him, since they figure working with the poor all the time is depressing. To paraphrase him, “Don’t ever worry about people who work with the poor—we’re a lot happier than most; we get to work with the poor. The poor tell you exactly what they think. How many people do YOU work with like that?”

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi everyone. I am chatting with someone who claims that the Catholic Church can’t be true because the “Pope sits on a throne of gold while people starve.” What can I say to answer this accusation?

What does your friend suggest as an alternative?

Their answer leads to your response…

 

[mommyof4]

Oh I know. It really comes in handy when debating with Protestants.

Or fallen away, non-practicing husbands, I mean Catholics.

 

[DebChris]

This is just an out-of-the blue thought from a conference years ago.“Why does the chauffeur wear a cap? Because he is not the owner of the limosine.”
The president of the United States lives in a mansion owned and maintained by the American people. The same can be said regarding the heads of states of the various nations. The people of each country provide the estate in which the head of state resides.
The pope is a temporal head of state. He offers hospitality to different visitors from around the world. He does not own his residence. His residence is very old. The mission of the pope is not limited to merely temperal concerns. He acts as the eyes and ears of Christ, both for those who know and those who do not know Christ. It is Christ who through His Church reaches out to the millions of souls in need, both spiritually and materially. The Vatican and other churches around the world were built by men and women of faith who chose to demonstate this faith through their artistic works. They have chosen to honor God through the gifts God has given them to use. It is this work that is seen not only by the generation in which the mostly unknown artist lived, but by generations that have come after. It is this artistic work, not merely the preaching of others, that brings many to an awe and wonder that opens their ears to hear the word of God and the salvation he has to offer.
It is members of Christ’s Church, who responding in faith to the Word of God they have received, give away material possesions for the benefit of those in need. Examples already given include acts of mercy by the Salesians, St. Vincent de Paul Society, and various Charitable Catholic Hospitals, like St. Jude.
If you read the ancient Greeks, wealth can be a good thing when it make possible the practice of providing for those without.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Oh. I think what this person means is why does the Pope have all his riches and does not sell those riches or whatever to help the poor and that somehow that shows the Church is wrong.

People who say such things to you are simply
self-righteous, bigoted ignoramuses who like to shoot
their mouths off, that’s all. I know. When I was a JW, I used to be one of them who mouthed off about the “Rich” churches.

If the church worldwide sold off all her belongings,
we could have a “world lunch day,”
and after every person on earth had his sandwich, pizza slice, and coca-cola, they could go right back to being starving and poor, and the church would have no resources to spread the gospel. Ignore the comments of bigots like your friend.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Don’t forget, JP, that by ‘the church selling off all her belongings’ you aren’t talking about the Pope and the cardinals ‘making the decision’ either. . .because THEY don’t ‘own’ the things.

All those ‘things’ are owned by every Catholic–indeed, by every PERSON, Catholic or not. So ‘we’ have to consent to sell those things and the Pope then (if the Spirit somehow did guide him to think, 'yes, this is what God is telling us to do) would make the very extensive and EXPENSIVE arrangements, which would take years if not decades and much of the ‘cost’ of the ‘things’ would go to ‘third party’ people such as appraisors, experts in fields, the legal profession, banks, etc.

And somehow when all that was accomplished, as you said, the average person in the world might have the equivalent of one meal of small to moderate size. . . and then. . .the ones who made the purchases and the profits would sit back with ‘their’ wealth and the poor would still be just as poor as ever.

So then what would be next? Once the ‘treasure’ goes, then it’s on to the next level . . .once you have sold the ‘gold’ cups, it’s time to sell even the ‘wooden’ cups because isn’t it more important to feed the poor than to have a WOODEN cup? What’s wrong with having a paper or PLASTIC CUP? (which, of course, in turn will have to be sold, too). Time to sell not just the ‘art’ by the Old Masters, but even the church’s bricks and stones and land FOR THE POOR --why can’t we celebrate ‘god’ in our HEARTS --why does he need ALL THOSE CHURCHES? Etc. etc. etc.

 

[Teflon93]

Don’t forget, JP, that by ‘the church selling off all her belongings’ you aren’t talking about the Pope and the cardinals ‘making the decision’ either. . .because THEY don’t ‘own’ the things.

All those ‘things’ are owned by every Catholic–indeed, by every PERSON, Catholic or not. So ‘we’ have to consent to sell those things and the Pope then (if the Spirit somehow did guide him to think, 'yes, this is what God is telling us to do) would make the very extensive and EXPENSIVE arrangements, which would take years if not decades and much of the ‘cost’ of the ‘things’ would go to ‘third party’ people such as appraisors, experts in fields, the legal profession, banks, etc.

And somehow when all that was accomplished, as you said, the average person in the world might have the equivalent of one meal of small to moderate size. . . and then. . .the ones who made the purchases and the profits would sit back with ‘their’ wealth and the poor would still be just as poor as ever.

So then what would be next? Once the ‘treasure’ goes, then it’s on to the next level . . .once you have sold the ‘gold’ cups, it’s time to sell even the ‘wooden’ cups because isn’t it more important to feed the poor than to have a WOODEN cup? What’s wrong with having a paper or PLASTIC CUP? (which, of course, in turn will have to be sold, too). Time to sell not just the ‘art’ by the Old Masters, but even the church’s bricks and stones and land FOR THE POOR --why can’t we celebrate ‘god’ in our HEARTS --why does he need ALL THOSE CHURCHES? Etc. etc. etc.

Of course, we’ve already seen what happens when the possessions of the “rich” Catholic Church are seized and sold. A few wicked men are enriched.

This is precisely what happened during the Reformation.

 

[DebChris]

Don’t forget, JP, that by ‘the church selling off all her belongings’ you aren’t talking about the Pope and the cardinals ‘making the decision’ either. . .because THEY don’t ‘own’ the things.

All those ‘things’ are owned by every Catholic–indeed, by every PERSON, Catholic or not. So ‘we’ have to consent to sell those things and the Pope then (if the Spirit somehow did guide him to think, 'yes, this is what God is telling us to do) would make the very extensive and EXPENSIVE arrangements, which would take years if not decades and much of the ‘cost’ of the ‘things’ would go to ‘third party’ people such as appraisors, experts in fields, the legal profession, banks, etc.

And somehow when all that was accomplished, as you said, the average person in the world might have the equivalent of one meal of small to moderate size. . . and then. . .the ones who made the purchases and the profits would sit back with ‘their’ wealth and the poor would still be just as poor as ever.

So then what would be next? Once the ‘treasure’ goes, then it’s on to the next level . . .once you have sold the ‘gold’ cups, it’s time to sell even the ‘wooden’ cups because isn’t it more important to feed the poor than to have a WOODEN cup? What’s wrong with having a paper or PLASTIC CUP? (which, of course, in turn will have to be sold, too). Time to sell not just the ‘art’ by the Old Masters, but even the church’s bricks and stones and land FOR THE POOR --why can’t we celebrate ‘god’ in our HEARTS --why does he need ALL THOSE CHURCHES? Etc. etc. etc.

Why do we need all those churches, anyway? We don’t need a place to gather and support each other in our walk with Christ, do we? Of course we can’t have plastic cups or paper cups. We don’t want to pollute the earth with our waste.

 

[Teflon93]

Why do we need all those churches, anyway? We don’t need a place to gather and support each other in our walk with Christ, do we? Of course we can’t have plastic cups or paper cups. We don’t want to pollute the earth with our waste.

And think of all the forests lost to create all those Bibles!

Why not have the poor simply access the text through their Blackberries?

 

[DebChris]

And think of all the forests lost to create all those Bibles!

Why not have the poor simply access the text through their Blackberries?

But then they would have to worry about electromagnetic forces

 

[Apologist78]

But then they would have to worry about electromagnetic forces

And the poor wouldn’t be able to afford such a device anyway! Maybe the companies that make them could sell of their company and give the money to the poor?

 

[DebChris]

And the poor wouldn’t be able to afford such a device anyway! Maybe the companies that make them could sell of their company and give the money to the poor?

Didn’t Pope John XXIII speak out against both capitalism and communism? They don’t need the profit. The poor, however, need food to eat.

 

[NonDenom]

Really?
Why does that mean that The Church is not true?
The Pope is not God. Just His Vicar! Not concerned with the social status of the person, but the welfare and equality of every human soul. Even so, there are more Catholic organisations throughout the globe aiding the poor and needy than even the Red Cross or any other Christian organisation! We are just not interested in making TV programmes or documentaries about it, because we aren’t interested in being famous or well known! Our brief is to do as Our Lord commanded. Period.

Disagree

As the Vicar of Christ, we expect the Pope to be “housed” in things consisting of the purest metals and of the ‘nearest’ to Godliness as we are capable of.

You make him out to be way to important, he is a sinful man in need of a Savior just like the rest of us

But if we couldn’t, the Pope can quite easily live as Peter when he was Pope; or Clement, or Linus et al. In squalor and in caves if necessary!

highly doubtful

What does your conversant follow? What are their leaders doing? If Christian, do they ‘fleece their flock’ so the leaders can live in riches?

There are most certainly those that do this.

Again, The Pope is not God! He is as human as the next person and suceptible to the same failings as everyone else. The Church on the other hand is a different matter! Divinely instituted by Jesus Christ Himself who PROMISED to guard it from the gates of Hades, and be with it until the end means (with or without the Pope) The Church is already TRUE!

This has nothing to do with extravagant living by the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church

 

[clmowry]

This has nothing to do with extravagant living by the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church

What extravagant living would that be?

Oh yeah I forgot, they finally air conditioned his room.

Chuck