Greek Archbishop comments on Assisi III

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Archbishop Elias of the Greek Orthodox Church comments on Benedict XVI call for Assisi III, and the beatification of John Paul II. I don’t think the Archbishop will be present for Assisi III.

en.gloria.tv/?media=126630
 
Archbishop Elias of the Greek Orthodox Church comments on Benedict XVI call for Assisi III, and the beatification of John Paul II. I don’t think the Archbishop will be present for Assisi III.

en.gloria.tv/?media=126630
Look at the caption under the video: “Archbishop Elias, **Ukrainian **orthodox Greek-Catholic Church (UOGCC)”

Most certainly NOT “Greek” nor, it seems, even truly mainstream Orthodox. I know it’s wikipedia, but this will give an idea of where the outfit comes from. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Orthodox_Greek_Catholic_Church
 
Look at the caption under the video: “Archbishop Elias, **Ukrainian **orthodox Greek-Catholic Church (UOGCC)”

Most certainly NOT “Greek” nor, it seems, even truly mainstream Orthodox. I know it’s wikipedia, but this will give an idea of where the outfit comes from. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Orthodox_Greek_Catholic_Church
Just for clarification: the Eastern rite Catholics (not only the group in the subject) in the area of the former Austrian-Hungarian Empire call themselves Greek Catholics. They claim that originally they belonged to the Byzantine Empire and Patriarch, but disassociated themselves during the schism (1054), so remained in unity with Rome. During the 17th Century the Patriarch of Moscow wanted to turn them to his control, what they refused and formally united with Rome, keeping their liturgy and customs (including the ordination of married priests), accepting the Filioque and the Purgatory also the primacy of the Roman pope.

Apparently the group in the subject is a sect separated recently from these Eastern (Greek) Catholics (hence the Orthodox-Greek-Catholic name).
 
Looks like its not only the SSPX who are upset about it.
 
Just for clarification: the Eastern rite Catholics (not only the group in the subject) in the area of the former Austrian-Hungarian Empire call themselves Greek Catholics. They claim that originally they belonged to the Byzantine Empire and Patriarch, but disassociated themselves during the schism (1054), so remained in unity with Rome. During the 17th Century the Patriarch of Moscow wanted to turn them to his control, what they refused and formally united with Rome, keeping their liturgy and customs (including the ordination of married priests), accepting the Filioque and the Purgatory also the primacy of the Roman pope.

Youre right about that. I come from a Hungarian-American family and we always used to referred to ourselves as Greek Catholics. Now, here in America anyway, its Byzantine Catholic.
 
As an academician, I find several interesting points in this video.

The Archbishop certainly speaks to the Holy Father in a respectful manner. This does not mean that I agree with what he says. I’m simply acknowledging that he is trying to be respectful, as evidenced by the fact that he continuously refers to him by his proper title, Your Holiness.

This is interesting too from another perspective. Language reflects culture. The very fact that he uses the proper title for the Holy Father is at some level recognition of his office and of the authority that comes with it, which is more than some Catholics show for the papacy.

Another interesting academic point is the fact that he offers some suggestions to the Holy Father on how to correct what he preserves as some egregious wrong. This is worth noting. Very often, people are quick to criticize and condemn and slow to offer solutions. We need not agree with his proposed solutions; however, we can learn to offer solutions when we feel that something should change, not just criticize and complain.

Of equal interest is the overstepping of boundaries. He is an archbishop, not a patriarch. This is important. An Orthodox and an Eastern Catholic Patriarch is a cleric of equal rank with the Patriarch of the West. However, even among the Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox Christians, there is a recognition of a hierarchy. Archbishops do not dictate to patriarchs of any of the Apostolic Churches, especially across boundaries. It would be like the pastor of a parish in one diocese dictating to the bishop of the diocese next door. Whether or not you belong to the same Church, a hierarchy is observed within and between the Apostolic Churches. Obviously, he is violating protocol. We, in the West, may not think much about this; but to Easterners, protocol is very important. This is behavior that is out of cultural context. As Mr. Spock would say, “Interesting.”

The last point is important, because it places the Patriarch of his Church in a tough position. The Patriarch must ignore one of his own, in solidarity with the pope or support one of his own, which would be an ecumenical blunder, since the two Churches mutually lifted the excommunications and anathemas that they had issued against each other. In essence, the Archbishop has created a tension, which he may not have intended to create or thought about it beforehand. The only way out for the Patriarch would be to pretend that it did not happen. It would be like the Wizard of Oz when the voice says, “Ignore the little man behind the curtain.”

His talk resurrects an interesting piece of Church history. It is true that any bishop can excommunicate. The Archbishop has basically said that if the Holy Father goes through with the Assisi gathering and the beatification of John Paul II he will incur a latae sententiae excommunication. The problem here is that Pope Benedict does not fall under the jurisdiction of the Greek Orthodox Church. You cannot impose a canonical penalty on someone over whom you do not have jurisdiction. Before the schism, the bishops of the East and West could impose canonical penalties on each other, because they were all Catholic. Once the schism took place, they could not impose such penalties on each other, because they had excommunicated each other. Once you do that, you no longer have jurisdiction. Even though the excommunications have been lifted, each side still has jurisdiction only over those who are in full communion with them.

The Archbishop certainly has a right to his opinions. As a Catholic, I view it as an interesting piece for academic discussion for a classroom, because it raises two interesting questions of law.
  1. How high can the authority of an archbishop reach?
  2. What would be the appropriate response of his patriarch?
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I don’t know who this person is, I never heard of his church. It may be vagante, or possibly the person who posted the video labeled it wrong.
 
Hello Laszlo,
Respectfully, I need to make a few corrections.
Just for clarification: the Eastern rite Catholics (not only the group in the subject) in the area of the former Austrian-Hungarian Empire call themselves Greek Catholics.
This is correct. However the ‘Archbishop’ self identifies as Ukrainian, so he probably does not belong to that group.

Some say the queen of Austria-Hungary coined the phrase.

The term Greek Catholic is also used by Orthodox from the same region.
They claim that originally they belonged to the Byzantine Empire and Patriarch, but disassociated themselves during the schism (1054), so remained in unity with Rome.
Not actually. These were never part of the Byzantine empire. If we are speaking of the faithful of the Hungarian kingdom, they were originally evangelized by the mission work of Ss Cyril and Methodios, who were sent by Saint Photios to the Moravian kingdom at the request of the Moravian king. The Moravian kingdom broke up later, mostly under pressure from the Franks, who began a process of transferring the eastern rite Catholics into the western (Latin) rite, which is why most of Hungary, Slovakia, Poland and the Czech Republic are today actually Latin rite, although they were first converted to the eastern Greek/Methodian rite.



At the time of the schism (generally dated to 1054 for convenience) most of the regions eastern rite population was Orthodox, and that situation remained for about 500 years. This is not some group that never left communion with Rome.

The affiliation of the remaining eastern rite churches in Austria- Hungary changed during a historical episode when the local Orthodox bishop was imprisoned in the castle of a local lord, who happened to be a Calvinist. The priests of the diocese were persuaded to submit to Rome and were placed under the Latin bishop of Eger. The year was 1646AD.

For this their status as priests was legalized and they were given support from the state, as vicars for the local Latin rite priests.
During the 17th Century the Patriarch of Moscow wanted to turn them to his control, what they refused and formally united with Rome, keeping their liturgy and customs (including the ordination of married priests), accepting the Filioque and the Purgatory also the primacy of the Roman pope.
You may be confusing the Greek Catholics of Hungary with the Ukrainians.

The Ukrainians were also never part of the Byzantine empire, and they were Orthodox at the time of the schism.

However, from the late 14th century the Catholic kingdom of Poland was expanding eastward into Ukraine and Belarus, principally by the marriage of queen Jadwiga to the Prince of Lithuania. The kings of Poland reserved the right to name the bishops (Catholic and Orthodox) in their lands.



Over time the kings of Poland had named several Orthodox bishops who leaned toward submission to the Papacy. By doing so they were assured state support. Still the bishops placed conditions on the proposed arrangement, known as the Union of Brest. Significantly, the Archdiocese of L’viv remained Orthodox at the time.

This arrangement did break up over time as Russia pushed the Poles out of the region. A small portion of the union of Brest survives, centered on L’viv in western Ukraine, which was sustained by the Austrians after the partition of Poland.
Apparently the group in the subject is a sect separated recently from these Eastern (Greek) Catholics (hence the Orthodox-Greek-Catholic name).
There is no way for me to know, but I think it is a small group of vagantes, or possibly one of the non-canonical Ukrainian Orthodox churches (there are several).
 
Greek Catholic is a term used by some Byzantine Catholic Churches to identify themselves as non-Roman Catholic. Basically the Byzantine Empire is the predominantly Greek speaking Eastern half of the Roman Emprie. You can say that Roman and Byzantine are the equivalents, as to Latin and Greek (the culture and language).
 
As an academician, I find several interesting points in this video.

The Archbishop certainly speaks to the Holy Father in a respectful manner. This does not mean that I agree with what he says. I’m simply acknowledging that he is trying to be respectful, as evidenced by the fact that he continuously refers to him by his proper title, Your Holiness.

This is interesting too from another perspective. Language reflects culture. The very fact that he uses the proper title for the Holy Father is at some level recognition of his office and of the authority that comes with it, which is more than some Catholics show for the papacy.

Another interesting academic point is the fact that he offers some suggestions to the Holy Father on how to correct what he preserves as some egregious wrong. This is worth noting. Very often, people are quick to criticize and condemn and slow to offer solutions. We need not agree with his proposed solutions; however, we can learn to offer solutions when we feel that something should change, not just criticize and complain.

Of equal interest is the overstepping of boundaries. He is an archbishop, not a patriarch. This is important. An Orthodox and an Eastern Catholic Patriarch is a cleric of equal rank with the Patriarch of the West. However, even among the Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox Christians, there is a recognition of a hierarchy. Archbishops do not dictate to patriarchs of any of the Apostolic Churches, especially across boundaries. It would be like the pastor of a parish in one diocese dictating to the bishop of the diocese next door. Whether or not you belong to the same Church, a hierarchy is observed within and between the Apostolic Churches. Obviously, he is violating protocol. We, in the West, may not think much about this; but to Easterners, protocol is very important. This is behavior that is out of cultural context. As Mr. Spock would say, “Interesting.”

The last point is important, because it places the Patriarch of his Church in a tough position. The Patriarch must ignore one of his own, in solidarity with the pope or support one of his own, which would be an ecumenical blunder, since the two Churches mutually lifted the excommunications and anathemas that they had issued against each other. In essence, the Archbishop has created a tension, which he may not have intended to create or thought about it beforehand. The only way out for the Patriarch would be to pretend that it did not happen. It would be like the Wizard of Oz when the voice says, “Ignore the little man behind the curtain.”

His talk resurrects an interesting piece of Church history. It is true that any bishop can excommunicate. The Archbishop has basically said that if the Holy Father goes through with the Assisi gathering and the beatification of John Paul II he will incur a latae sententiae excommunication. The problem here is that Pope Benedict does not fall under the jurisdiction of the Greek Orthodox Church. You cannot impose a canonical penalty on someone over whom you do not have jurisdiction. Before the schism, the bishops of the East and West could impose canonical penalties on each other, because they were all Catholic. Once the schism took place, they could not impose such penalties on each other, because they had excommunicated each other. Once you do that, you no longer have jurisdiction. Even though the excommunications have been lifted, each side still has jurisdiction only over those who are in full communion with them.

The Archbishop certainly has a right to his opinions. As a Catholic, I view it as an interesting piece for academic discussion for a classroom, because it raises two interesting questions of law.
  1. How high can the authority of an archbishop reach?
  2. What would be the appropriate response of his patriarch?
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Brother,
The “Archbishop” is part of a schismatic group consecrated without permission of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church or of the Holy See. He was tried and excommunicated in 2008. In no sense he is entitled to respect as an archbishop.

See: old.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article%3b21444

C.
 
Hello Laszlo,
Respectfully, I need to make a few corrections.
I know it differently from Hungarian sources. These are highly politicized questions, so no solid information is available.

I hope we agree that the group named in this topic is stray either from the Catholics and from the Orthodox churches.
 
I know it differently from Hungarian sources. These are highly politicized questions, so no solid information is available.

I hope we agree that the group named in this topic is stray either from the Catholics and from the Orthodox churches.
Me too Lasz What I know is what I heard from Hungarian grandparents.

Yes, I also think this is a vagente group.
 
Brother,
The “Archbishop” is part of a schismatic group consecrated without permission of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church or of the Holy See. He was tried and excommunicated in 2008. In no sense he is entitled to respect as an archbishop.

See: old.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article%3b21444

C.
Actually, he is entitled to all the respect that goes with the Order of Bishop, just as were the SSPX bishops when they were excommunicated. What he does not have is any canonical standing in any Catholic or Orthodox Church. Therefore, he has no canonical jurisdiction, nor does he have a voice in Church matters, Orthodox or Catholic, until he is in communion with one or the other. Unfortunately, because he is excomminicated, he’s out there in the cold, because no Patriarch can protect him.

Do you see what I mean?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Actually, he is entitled to all the respect that goes with the Order of Bishop, just as were the SSPX bishops when they were excommunicated. What he does not have is any canonical standing in any Catholic or Orthodox Church. Therefore, he has no canonical jurisdiction, nor does he have a voice in Church matters, Orthodox or Catholic, until he is in communion with one or the other. Unfortunately, because he is excomminicated, he’s out there in the cold, because no Patriarch can protect him.

Do you see what I mean?
There are some serious doubts
  • the local (Eastern Catholic) archbishop Husar questions the validity of their ordination old.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article%3b21444
  • it was never disclosed who ordained them
  • they are explicitly excommunicated, excluded from the Catholic Church. They do not deserve the honor of a bishop much more the honor of an archbishop.
They are not on the level of the openly ordained SSPX bishops
 
There are some serious doubts
  • the local (Eastern Catholic) archbishop Husar questions the validity of their ordination old.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article%3b21444
  • it was never disclosed who ordained them
  • they are explicitly excommunicated, excluded from the Catholic Church. They do not deserve the honor of a bishop much more the honor of an archbishop.
They are not on the level of the openly ordained SSPX bishops
It is particularly troubling to have this portrayed in the headling as “Greek Archbishop comments on X,” as though that provides a reason I should care. If I see a headline that says “Roman Catholic bishop speaks out on Y,” that’s a little dishonest, in implication if nothing else, if he turns out to be some third-generation Thuc-line nobody.
 
There are some serious doubts
  • the local (Eastern Catholic) archbishop Husar questions the validity of their ordination old.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article%3b21444
  • it was never disclosed who ordained them
  • they are explicitly excommunicated, excluded from the Catholic Church. They do not deserve the honor of a bishop much more the honor of an archbishop.
They are not on the level of the openly ordained SSPX bishops
That is not the way that we operate in the Catholic Church. Excommunicated or not, we respect and acknowledge a valid ordination, if there is one . . . as we do with the Orthodox, the Old Catholics, the Polish National Church and the Chinese Church.

If the ordination is in question and even when we do not acknowledge it as valid, the Catholic Church continues to show respect toward clergy and prelates of other Christian communities, as we do toward the Archbishop of Canterbury.

The policy and behavior of the Catholic Church is to lead in a show of respect and proper decorum toward clergy of other faiths, whether the ordination is valid, illicit or invalid, this respect extends toward non Christian religious leaders as well (i.e. rabbis and Muslim leaders)

From a canonical point of view the analogy between this particular archbishop and the bishops of the SSPX (while excommunicated) works, If he is validly ordained.

If he is not validly ordained, then you apply the ecclesial principle, which is the principle that we apply to the Archbishop of Canterbury and the other Anglican and American Episcopal bishops. We do not acknowledge the ordination, but we do acknowledge their office in their ecclesial community and we show them respect.

Just remember the many times that the Archbishop of Canterbury has visited the Holy See and the pope’s visit to the UK. The Roman and Oriental prelates were both very diplomatic and reserved in their comments. This has always been the case.

An ordination can have one of three canonical states:

Valid and licit (all Catholics and all Orthodox)
Valid and illicit (SSPX, Old Catholics, Polish National Catholics, Chinese National Church)
Invalid (Anglican, American Episcopal, and others)

However, the Holy See has made it clear in its example that Catholics treat all of these persons with respect in word and deed. The state of the ordination does not mean that we should ever be less than courteous. If they want to be rude and bullish, that’s their problem.

In this case, I don’t see the Holy See responding to the Archbishop, one way or another. In other words, the Holy See is not going to justify itself. But it’s not going to minimize or make any statement to discredit him either. The Holy See will act politely and respectfully. Sometimes, the best way to do that is to remain silent and wait for the other party to make a move toward dialogue.

If he has been excommunicated by his Church, I agree with the poster who said that the title of the thread is misleading. It gives the impression that it’s an Archbishop who is in communion with the Greek Church.

See what I’m saying? 😉

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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