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At_Trent
Guest
Thank you Brother JR. I hope some day I will learn to reply in the same charitable way. 
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J
JReducation
Guest
I just went back to the article. He does not say that the ordination is invalid or valid. He simply quotes Oriental Canon Law, which in this case, happens to be the same as Roman Canon Law. It’s one of those few cases where they overlap.
The names of the individuals were never submitted by the proper authorities.
The Pope of Rome never approved the ordination
Therefore, the ordained and the ordaining prelates are excommunicated. This was exactly the same situation as the bishops of the SSPX. It’s about an ordination without permission.
This Archbishop does not have valid jurisdiction. It does not say that his ordination is invalid. The article does not make reference to the validity, but to the licaity, unless there is some other place that says that the ordination was invalid. It’s the SSPX situation in the Eastern Church.
Great! Just as we’re bringing one sad chatper to a close, another opens up among the Greek Catholics. If I’m reading the article correctly, these monks who were ordained were Catholic, not Orthodox or renegades from either the Orthodox or the Oriental Catholics. The Order of St. Basil is a canonical order and the Oriental counterpart to the Order of St. Benedict.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Satan is indeed persistent. We must not rest resisting his temptations.
H
Hesychios
Guest
If I remember correctly these men had some connection with Father Kovpaks group, or are of a similar vein if not directly connected.…Great! Just as we’re bringing one sad chatper to a close, another opens up among the Greek Catholics. If I’m reading the article correctly, these monks who were ordained were Catholic, not Orthodox or renegades from either the Orthodox or the Oriental Catholics. The Order of St. Basil is a canonical order and the Oriental counterpart to the Order of St. Benedict.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
The situation has to do with the efforts of the UGCC to recover it’s Orthodox traditions. Over time, the Ukrainian Catholics absorbed a great deal of Latinizing tendencies, forgetting their original spirituality and practices.
To be fair, these Latinizations had a lot to do with the survival of the Ukrainian Catholic underground church under the communists. Stalin deliberately dissolved the Ukrainian Catholic church after the occcupation and annexation of Lviv (formerly under Polish control until the country was overrun in WW II ) and turned over the parishes to the Orthodox church, which had already been beaten to a pulp in the rest of the Soviet Union and was somewhat more compliant. This, of course, made anything which differentiated the faithful from Orthodoxy highly prized in many people’s eyes, and the Latinizations were cherished all the more during those ‘dark days’.
Now that the UGCC is struggling to recover it’s native Orthodoxy, there is a backlash, and this is a symptom of that. These are powerful forces at work. They do deserve some sympathy, but of course they have been disobedient.
I found it mildly amusing that they were criticized for not receiving the Papal blessing, since in fact Cardinal Lubomyr was similarly ordained a bishop in secret without the Papal blessing. The difference, of course, is that he eventually got it, and these gentlemen probably never will.
J
JReducation
Guest
The bold is mine
We must always trust in God’s mercy and the prayers of the Theotokos my friend. As long as a man breathes, there is always hope for conversion, forgiveness and reconciliation. For years, it looked as if the bishops of the SSPX would never return to full communion with the Church. However, today, we are closer to that full communion than we ever imagined. The excommunication has been lifted. Even though they still have no canonical place in the Church, there is a dialogue in progress, which we pray will be fruitful.
As a sinner myself, I know the power of the Mother of God and her prayers. She wishes to heal her son’s wounded body. Let us never forget the words of the prophet, “Not one of his bones shall be broken.” The body may be wounded, but not a single limb shall be severed from it. Therefore, the Church shall never be disabled. She will hurt and she will bleed; but she will also heal.
I believe that just as Mary held the wounded body of her son, as so beautifully represented in the Pieta, so she holds the wounded Church in her arms and she presents it to her son along with a mother’s plea to restore it to health. If we remember the story of Jairus, Jesus had a special place in his heart for the cries of parents for their children. Would he ever ignore his mother’s pleading prayers for her children?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
L
laszlo
Guest
I have some problems with this:
- there is no proof of their ordination except their announcement. Theoretically it is possible that they ordained themselves, and announced their ordination
- excommunication means complete exclusion from the Church, the deprivation of all privileges. Excommunicated persons regardless of their ordination should not comment on the institutions of the Church, and Catholic should not honor their comment, regardless of their status of ordination. Only the jurisdiction gives teaching power to a bishop, the ordination (if valid) gives only sacramental power.
- Archbishop is hierarchical title and to call someone archbishop who never received that jurisdiction is deception.
C
Cetil
Guest
No, I don’t . Cardinal Lubomir’s decree is quite explicit that these individuals are guilty of “grave crimes” for which they were tried and convicted. That is quite different from the SSPX which for the moment remains in dialogue with Rome although still without canonical standing. The laity of the Ukraine and clergy as well have been forbidden all contact with these individuals. They are under what is known in the Eastern churches as a “great excommunication”. That means that any sacraments they administer are in fact not only illicit but INVALID.Actually, he is entitled to all the respect that goes with the Order of Bishop, just as were the SSPX bishops when they were excommunicated. What he does not have is any canonical standing in any Catholic or Orthodox Church. Therefore, he has no canonical jurisdiction, nor does he have a voice in Church matters, Orthodox or Catholic, until he is in communion with one or the other. Unfortunately, because he is excomminicated, he’s out there in the cold, because no Patriarch can protect him.
Do you see what I mean?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
See: old.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;26027
And:
old.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;24914
C.
J
JReducation
Guest
There is nothing to get so excited about here, folks. Calm down. If you recall my post, I said that ordinations fall under one of several states:
Valid and licit
Valid and illicit
Invalid
The original article did not say anything about the great excommunication. Now that Cetil has kindly provided the comment from the Signatura, we know that they are in the group whose ordination is invalid.
However, we must still stand with the protocol that has always been used by the Church in these matters. The Signatura and the other appropriate authorities issue the decrees and clarification. We abide by them. However, that does not mean that our response and reactioin to them should be any less polite or respectful than to any other clergyman who is also invalidly ordained. It does not mean that we use language or expressions that convey disdain or are condescending. We certainly must curb our anger and redirect it to prayer and penance for those who do not do penance for themselves.
The language of the signatura is certainlly not disdainful or condescending. It is very legal and to the point. “They committed a crime. They were excommunicted. The excommunication stands.” It does not attack. It simply describes a situation.
Again, if another person wants to act nasty or rude toward us, that’s their problem. We, on the other hand, must never respond in kind. Our posture must always be kind, resepctful and dignified. If we want to know what that looks like, all we have to do is look toward those popes who have dealt directly with clergy (valid and invalid) from many communities: John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I (while he was Archbishop), John Paul II and Benedict XVI. Their decorum is always impeccable and their demeanor is alwasy one that invites to reconciliation.
This should be our concern as well. We must always invite to reconciliation, both through our words and through our manner. I believe that if we do our part, reconciliation and healing will come, not only with these people and their followers, but with the world.
To use Eastern language, we must trust the Theotokus. Just as she held the wounded and dead body of her son in her arms and offered it up to the Father, so too does she hold the wounded ecclesial body of her son and offers it up to him to heal.
As I’ve always said, Jesus is always sympathetic to the requests of parents whose children were suffering or dead… Let us not forget the story of Jairus. He will not deny the request for healing and life presented by his own mother for us, her children. But we must want to live and we must want others to live too. We must unite our prayer to her prayer, that the whole body be healed and saved from death. If we do this, reconciliation and healing will come. Maybe not in our lifetime, but slowly. Let us remember the number of generations between Abraham and David and the generations between David and Jesus. But all along, God was at work.
Let us not engage in vitriol against those who have sinned, for we have all betrayed him. Let us engage in prayer and in charity with dignity.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Cetil
Guest
I think it goes without saying that one should keep charity of heart towards all and also pray for them. But I find it very troubling that you seem to brush this all off. “Grave crimes” are just that and we should all have a sense of horror at sin. That is what is so troubling about the contemporary Church; the lack of outrage over not only this but even those guilty of sex abuse. That is truly shocking.
And I don’t know why you keep bringing up the SSPX issue or why for that matter you think they are close to full communion. No such thing has happened. Bishop Fellay stated last May there will be “no compromise”. The dialogue in Rome has obviously not gone well.
C.
And I don’t know why you keep bringing up the SSPX issue or why for that matter you think they are close to full communion. No such thing has happened. Bishop Fellay stated last May there will be “no compromise”. The dialogue in Rome has obviously not gone well.
C.
J
JReducation
Guest
There are many ways of showing indignation about something and at the same time keeping one’s inner silence and peace. I have always been a great admirer of people like Maximilian Kolbe, Pius XII, John Paul II, Mother Teresa and Benedict XVI. None of them have ever condoned crimes of any kind; however, they have all kept a calm approach to the problems at hand. Indignation does not mean that one has to be loud or aggressive. Indignation means that one rejects evil and works for the greater good. This is what these holy people have taught us through some very difficult times. Are you suggesting that any of these individuals or I did brushed over the sex abuse crimes? That’s a big accusation.
I did not read Bishop Felay’s comment last May. If the situation has not changed and there is no willingness to compromise, there will come a point when Cardinal Levada will simply suggest that the SSPX not be granted canonical status. Ultimately, it will be up to the Holy Father to decide; but right now he relies on the theologians of the Sacred Congregation for the Faith to keep the discussion growing and make the final recommendations. Whatever the issues were last May, let’s hope and pray that they will arrive at some resolution. Many things can happen in six months. Nothing is impossible for God.
I mention them because they are an example of a group that was once excommunicated for ordaining bishops without permissioin, has since had the excommunication lifted and according to the Holy Father’s own words in an interview, he lifted the excommunications because the SSPX bishops agreed to submit to the primacy and requested that the excommunicatioins be lifted. He told this to the press. It was published in Light of the World, which Pope Benedict proofread and approved.
In my estimation, they are an excellent example of the good things that can happen, even when something wrong has transpired in the past. It is not a criticism of the SSPX. On the contrary, it is an observation of all the good possibilities when individuals or groups truly want full communion with the Church.
I hope that the May statement is no longer the case. I would hate to see an entire group of deacons, priests and four bishops continue to be functioning illicitly. Even though this may seem insignificant to some, it’s not. We should all pray and work for licit exercise of ministry. It would be sad to have four bishops with no canonical status or authority. That’s not the norm. The greatest thing that can happen is for them to have the same rights as their brother bishops. This hope is not just for the SSPX, but for any bishop who is validly ordained, but has no canonical status.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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