Greek: "Behold a green horse..."

[onemangang]

It’s not so much “two remaining sects” as “rival Zealot factions” which fought amongst themselves over the control of Jerusalem. John of Gischala was the leader of one faction, Simon bar Giora that of another, and Eleazar bar Simon the leader of a third. Their infighting was partly to blame for the weakening of Jewish resistance against Rome.

In case you’re curious, John surrendered was arrested when Jerusalem fell, shipped off to Rome where he was paraded in chains, and lived the rest of his life in prison.

Well said, rival factions fit better, sorry for the confusion. The dissagreement was certainly political and caused a bit of a “civil war”(if you wil), within, while Rome laid waste of the temple!

I have read that the infighting between the zealots lead to famine, burning opposing zealots grain silohs, and also you can see how the oil was used by John of Girshala that transgressed the law, also the money (Dracma) for grain, and wheat skyrocketed.

There is much to be said about the horses in Revelation, coresponding to the Jewish war and fall of the temple in 70 A.D.

Personally I think that St. John wrote Revelation before 70 A.D. hence my previous post.

 

[Contarini]

Green is also a color of decaying dead flesh.

ICXC NIKA

I think that’s probably the point, and why it is traditionally translated as “pale.”

 

[GEddie]

Here the sun is orange-red (although yellow is also recognized), and the ‘go’ signal in traffic lights are called ao-shingou, even if they are actually green.

Fun question. Is white a funeral color?

It is in some places (where escapes me).

ICXC NIKA

 

[steve53]

It’s not so much “two remaining sects” as “rival Zealot factions” which fought amongst themselves over the control of Jerusalem. John of Gischala was the leader of one faction, Simon bar Giora that of another, and Eleazar bar Simon the leader of a third. Their infighting was partly to blame for the weakening of Jewish resistance against Rome.

In case you’re curious, John surrendered was arrested when Jerusalem fell, shipped off to Rome where he was paraded in chains, and lived the rest of his life in prison.

Simon was paraded around in chains for sure. He was the real leader. And he was beheaded at the foot of the Capitoline Hill to the roar of the crowds.
John of Gischala was imprisoned, but probably would have been beheaded if it weren’t for Flavius Josephus. I am not sure if he was paraded around or not. When Josephus was a Jewish General early in the war, it was John of Gischala who hated him, and wanted him arrested and executed for crimes by the High Priesthood. Josephus doesn’t tell us what they are.
Josephus would likely have been deposed, except for the war began in earnest and it was off to the races. Josephus was captured early, and ingratiated himself to Vespasian and Titus. After the capture of Jerusalem, Josephus was given the honor of saving any Jewish prisoners he wanted, and also was given the Holy Writings in the temple (Torah).
Josephus thought execution was too good for John, holding a grudge. So he urged Titus to keep John alive, but in the worst of the Roman prisons.

 

[patrick457]

Simon was paraded around in chains for sure. He was the real leader. And he was beheaded at the foot of the Capitoline Hill to the roar of the crowds.

Josephus doesn’t say explicitly that Simon was beheaded.

…This general was Simon, son of Gioras, who had been led among the captives in the triumph, with a rope around his neck, scourged by those leading him along, and he had been brought to the usual place in the forum as directed in Roman law for condemned criminals to be executed. When his end was announced and the people applauded, they began the traditional sacrifices and recited the proper prayers and when they were finished, returned to the palace.

Personally I don’t see why Simon could not have been just hurled over the Tarpeian Rock in the traditional Roman manner. Execution by beheading was still pretty tame: being thrown over that cliff is right up there with crucifixion, in that both are very shameful ways to die.

 

[patrick457]

It is in some places (where escapes me).

ICXC NIKA

Like Japan.

 

[GEddie]

Josephus doesn’t say explicitly that Simon was beheaded.

…This general was Simon, son of Gioras, who had been led among the captives in the triumph, with a rope around his neck, scourged by those leading him along, and he had been brought to the usual place in the forum as directed in Roman law for condemned criminals to be executed. When his end was announced and the people applauded, they began the traditional sacrifices and recited the proper prayers and when they were finished, returned to the palace.

Personally I don’t see why Simon could not have been just hurled over the Tarpeian Rock in the traditional Roman manner. Execution by beheading was still pretty tame: being thrown over that cliff is right up there with crucifixion, in that both are very shameful ways to die.

Wikipedia (yeah I know) says that SbG did indeed die at the foot of the rock, not by beheading.

ICXC NIKA

 

[steve53]

Josephus doesn’t say explicitly that Simon was beheaded.

…This general was Simon, son of Gioras, who had been led among the captives in the triumph, with a rope around his neck, scourged by those leading him along, and he had been brought to the usual place in the forum as directed in Roman law for condemned criminals to be executed. When his end was announced and the people applauded, they began the traditional sacrifices and recited the proper prayers and when they were finished, returned to the palace.

Personally I don’t see why Simon could not have been just hurled over the Tarpeian Rock in the traditional Roman manner. Execution by beheading was still pretty tame: being thrown over that cliff is right up there with crucifixion, in that both are very shameful ways to die.

Oh, I think it is pretty clear. “his end was announced” means he was beheaded.
That was the ritual end of a war. The leader was intentionally not executed on the field, so he could be brought to Rome for the ceremonial end of the conflict. When the leader was beheaded, the war was over. A triumph!
Claudius was one of the few who spared the life of a captured leader. Caratacus.

 

[patrick457]

Oh, I think it is pretty clear. “his end was announced” means he was beheaded.
That was the ritual end of a war. The leader was intentionally not executed on the field, so he could be brought to Rome for the ceremonial end of the conflict. When the leader was beheaded, the war was over. A triumph!
Claudius was one of the few who spared the life of a captured leader. Caratacus.

Au contraire, it’s ambiguous. Checking around, I found that people could not even agree on how Simon died: some (especially older authors) believe he was thrown off the cliff, others (including some recent folks) think that he was beheaded.

 

[steve53]

You left out the first line in your previous quote of Josephus (VII-6). For shame, Patrick.

" Now the last part of this pompous show was at the temple of Jupiter Capitolinus, whither when they were come, they stood still;** for it was the Romans’ ancient custom to stay till somebody brought the news that the general of the enemy was slain.** This general was Simon, the son of Gioras, who had then been led in this triumph among the captives; a rope had also been put upon his head, and he had been drawn into a proper place in the forum, and had withal been tormented by those that drew him along; and the law of the Romans required that malefactors condemned to die should be slain there. Accordingly, when it was related that there was an end of him, and all the people had set up a shout for joy,"

“Slain” doesn’t mean “thrown from a rock”. Not even remotely.

That the Jewish leader was beheaded is also strongly suggested in Livy, writing on the Caudine Forks battle in the second Samnite war :

From book 11

[292 BCE] When consul Fabius Gurges had unsuccessfully fought against the Samnites and the Senate discussed his recall from the army, his father Fabius Maximus asked to save his son from humiliation, and the Senate granted this when he promised to help his son as deputy, something he really did. With his advise and assistance, his son, the consul, defeated the Samnites and celebrated a triumph. Gaius Pontius, the Samnite commander, walked in the procession and was beheaded.

Bow to my greatness, Patrick.

Point, set, match.

How else would they kill an enemy general…garroting? Death by a thousand cuts?

 

[patrick457]

You left out the first line in your previous quote of Josephus (VII-6). For shame, Patrick.

" Now the last part of this pompous show was at the temple of Jupiter Capitolinus, whither when they were come, they stood still;** for it was the Romans’ ancient custom to stay till somebody brought the news that the general of the enemy was slain.** This general was Simon, the son of Gioras, who had then been led in this triumph among the captives; a rope had also been put upon his head, and he had been drawn into a proper place in the forum, and had withal been tormented by those that drew him along; and the law of the Romans required that malefactors condemned to die should be slain there. Accordingly, when it was related that there was an end of him, and all the people had set up a shout for joy,"

“Slain” doesn’t mean “thrown from a rock”. Not even remotely.

That the Jewish leader was beheaded is also strongly suggested in Livy, writing on the Caudine Forks battle in the second Samnite war :

From book 11

[292 BCE] When consul Fabius Gurges had unsuccessfully fought against the Samnites and the Senate discussed his recall from the army, his father Fabius Maximus asked to save his son from humiliation, and the Senate granted this when he promised to help his son as deputy, something he really did. With his advise and assistance, his son, the consul, defeated the Samnites and celebrated a triumph. Gaius Pontius, the Samnite commander, walked in the procession and was beheaded.

Bow to my greatness, Patrick.

Point, set, match.

How else would they kill an enemy general…garroting? Death by a thousand cuts?

Thanks! I still think it’s really confusing that some guys say Simon died this way while others say he died that way?

By ‘bow’, what do you mean? A bending of the back, a kowtow, or a full-length prostration? And why should I bow before a human being? (Always wanted to joke about that one here)