Greek Catholics Converts to Orthodoxy - Fascinating New Doctoral Paper!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Defend_the_Keys
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Defend_the_Keys

Guest
Well, if you love 20th century history and the study of Eastern Christianity, here is something that is going to keep you busy for quite a while…a 544 page doctorial thesis!

As a member of a Ruthenian Catholic parish here in the USA, I’ve heard the joke that the founder of Orthodoxy in America was the Latin-rite Catholic Bishop John Ireland (the joke being that the restrictions on Greek Catholic priests by Bishop Ireland caused Greek Catholics to convert to Orthodoxy). Well, the paper at the below link by Joel Brady discusses this and a whole lot more! Quoting from the paper’s overview "In its simplest, most reductive, and unqualified form, it (the thesis) suggests that, because a migrant coal miner in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania decided to attend a different church one day, World War I happened."

Brady essentially shows that Russia and the Tsar were targeting Greek Catholics in America for conversion to Orthodoxy as a means of causing upheaval in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Russia wanted parts of Austria-Hungary and were always promoting subversive activities amongst the Slavs within the AH empire, which ultimately resulted in the assassination of the Austrian Arch Duke and the First World War.

The thesis is excellently researched and footnoted too. Enjoy!

d-scholarship.pitt.edu/11919/
 
Mickey said:
St Alexis Toth paray for us!
Click to expand...
A photo taken in the United States of Father Alexis Toth, migrant from Hungarian Subcarpathia, wearing the mitre of the order of St. Vladimir, presented to him from Russia by Tsar Nicholas in 1903, in recognition of his conversion of migrants from Galicia and Subcarpathia to the Russky Orthodox church (Russko-Amerikanskii Pravoslavnyi Kalendar’ 1906)
 
Note from Moderator:

This is not a battle of whose saints are better or more holy.

Discuss the article or don’t comment.

May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Eastern Catholicism Moderator
 
Reading the abstract, the idea that St. Alexander Toth is responsible for The Great War is silly. To whatever extent religious upheavals in Hungary added to the radicalization of Serbian Nationalists, it is an indirect link. By that same token you might as well break the outbreak of World War I on the Austrian betrayal of Russia in the 1850s (They had been close allies from the defeat of Napoleon up to this time), which precipitated efforts to undermine the Austrian government, and forced the Habsburgs to get cozy with the Prussians.

Of course, I understand (hope) the abstract is playing up the American Link. It’s a basic rule of writing.
 
.I’m only about half way through the paper so the author is still developing his thesis, but there are a LOT of factors in play that the author explores in great depth, and if anything, in my opinion the author is slightly sympathetic to the Orthodox, but by in large he is impartial (he credits the OCA Metropolitan of Pittsburgh for his assistance in writing the dissertation). I recommend anyone who is interested read the paper for himself or herself!

Of note is that many of the Greek Catholic immigrants to the US would eventually return to their home hometowns in the A-H Empire after amassing some wealth. Most of the immigrants who converted to Orthodoxy while in America would simply return to their Greek Catholic parish in A-H as if they had never left the Church (and not seek confession or a profession of faith). Some, however, returned trying to encourage more converts (others would write home encouraging conversion to Orthodoxy). This seems to be what the A-H Empire took issue with. The A-H Empire recognized Orthodoxy in Serbia and other ethnic groups where it had always exited, but took serious issue with the “conversions” of Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy because they saw it as Pan-Slav Russian meddling into their affairs (which there seems to be significant merit to).

I think it is sadly ironic that many of the Greek-Catholic converts to Orthodoxy in the USA did so because they believed it was a way to preserve their traditions. Unfortunately if you go to an OCA or RCOR service today, my understanding is that there is little to no remnants of Carpatho-Rusyn or Galician plainchant or other localized traditions as they were swallowed up by the dominant Russian majority. This is a stark contrast to a modern Ruthenian Catholic parish that has preserved the Carpatho-Russian traditions to a very great extent.

I personally view Alexis Toth very similar to that of Martin Luther. Both were individuals who focused on the local indiscretions of Church leadership and were convinced they knew a better way, which unfortunately led to much, much, more discord, both physical and spiritual. If only the Russian Tsar was more focused on his own flock of Orthodox rather than creating more flocks in America and A-H he might have prevented his own demise and the falling of his beloved country into the hands of Satan through Communism.
 
Defend_the_Keys said:
I think it is sadly ironic that many of the Greek-Catholic converts to Orthodoxy in the USA did so because they believed it was a way to preserve their traditions. Unfortunately if you go to an OCA or RCOR service today, my understanding is that there is little to no remnants of Carpatho-Rusyn or Galician plainchant or other localized traditions as they were swallowed up by the dominant Russian majority. This is a stark contrast to a modern Ruthenian Catholic parish that has preserved the Carpatho-Russian traditions to a very great extent.
Click to expand...
This is because the OCA, despite its Carpatho-Russyn roots serves quite a few immigrant communities, and not just the Carpatho-Russyns. I’m not sure why you brought ROCOR up, as ROCOR’s origin is Russian, not Carpatho-Russyn. You also forgot about ACROD.
 
Defend_the_Keys said:
If only the Russian Tsar was more focused on his own flock of Orthodox rather than creating more flocks in America and A-H he might have prevented his own demise and the falling of his beloved country into the hands of Satan through Communism.
Click to expand...
Funny, so many Catholics criticize us because they claim we don’t worry about missions.
Should the Pope have worried more about his own flock in Italy and perhaps preserved the Papal States there?
 
Nine_Two said:
Funny, so many Catholics criticize us because they claim we don’t worry about missions.
Should the Pope have worried more about his own flock in Italy and perhaps preserved the Papal States there?
Click to expand...
I assure you that no criticism was aimed at ANY Orthodox Christians (other than Tsar Nicholas)! My comment was directed at the Tsar of Russia, a temporal leader, who held no position of authority within the Orthodox Faith.

I assure you that I would not deem a criticism of the Austro-Hungarian monarch as directed toward the Catholic Faith as I have quite a few of them myself!
 
Cavaradossi said:
This is because the OCA, despite its Carpatho-Russyn roots serves quite a few immigrant communities, and not just the Carpatho-Russyns. I’m not sure why you brought ROCOR up, as ROCOR’s origin is Russian, not Carpatho-Russyn. You also forgot about ACROD.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that some Greek-Catholic communities in the USA went to the Russian Orthodox Church as well as the newly formed Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church that eventually morphed into the OCA (Orthodox Church of America). All Russian Orthodox churches in North America eventually became ROCOR (Russian Church Outside of Russia) after the communist took over Russia, so some of the Carphato-Rusyn parishes ended up with them.

The ACROD (American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Diocese) came about much later (1940’s) and their motto is “Neither Moscow or Rome” so not really applicable to this particular thesis although they are mentioned at a few points.
 
Defend_the_Keys said:
My understanding is that some Greek-Catholic communities in the USA went to the Russian Orthodox Church as well as the newly formed Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church that eventually morphed into the OCA (Orthodox Church of America). All Russian Orthodox churches in North America eventually became ROCOR (Russian Church Outside of Russia) after the communist took over Russia, so some of the Carphato-Rusyn parishes ended up with them.
Click to expand...
Perhaps some did, but ROCOR is not the jurisdiction which is primarily associated with the Carpatho-Russyns. The former Metropolia is.
Defend_the_Keys said:
The ACROD (American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Diocese) came about much later (1940’s) and their motto is “Neither Moscow or Rome” so not really applicable to this particular thesis although they are mentioned at a few points.
Click to expand...
I think ACROD’s liturgical practices are rather relevant to whether the Carpatho-Russyns managed to maintain their customs.
 
Defend_the_Keys said:
.I’m only about half way through the paper so the author is still developing his thesis, but there are a LOT of factors in play that the author explores in great depth, and if anything, in my opinion the author is slightly sympathetic to the Orthodox, but by in large he is impartial (he credits the OCA Metropolitan of Pittsburgh for his assistance in writing the dissertation). I recommend anyone who is interested read the paper for himself or herself!

Of note is that many of the Greek Catholic immigrants to the US would eventually return to their home hometowns in the A-H Empire after amassing some wealth. Most of the immigrants who converted to Orthodoxy while in America would simply return to their Greek Catholic parish in A-H as if they had never left the Church (and not seek confession or a profession of faith). Some, however, returned trying to encourage more converts (others would write home encouraging conversion to Orthodoxy). This seems to be what the A-H Empire took issue with. The A-H Empire recognized Orthodoxy in Serbia and other ethnic groups where it had always exited, but took serious issue with the “conversions” of Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy because they saw it as Pan-Slav Russian meddling into their affairs (which there seems to be significant merit to).

I think it is sadly ironic that many of the Greek-Catholic converts to Orthodoxy in the USA did so because they believed it was a way to preserve their traditions. Unfortunately if you go to an OCA or RCOR service today, my understanding is that there is little to no remnants of Carpatho-Rusyn or Galician plainchant or other localized traditions as they were swallowed up by the dominant Russian majority. This is a stark contrast to a modern Ruthenian Catholic parish that has preserved the Carpatho-Russian traditions to a very great extent.

I personally view Alexis Toth very similar to that of Martin Luther. Both were individuals who focused on the local indiscretions of Church leadership and were convinced they knew a better way, which unfortunately led to much, much, more discord, both physical and spiritual. If only the Russian Tsar was more focused on his own flock of Orthodox rather than creating more flocks in America and A-H he might have prevented his own demise and the falling of his beloved country into the hands of Satan through Communism.
Click to expand...
It is my understaning that St Alexis Toth formed the Greek Catholic Russian Orthodox chruch for 2 reasons primarily.
  1. The Irish and German bishops resited the whole Greek Catholic premise and tried to force them into Latin Catholicism.
  2. They refused faculties to married Russyn priests.
I was unaware that Greek Catholic Rusian Orthodox faithful had ever returned to Europe and tried to establish the CGROC there, I think this all had nothing to do with the Great War.
 
andrewstx said:
It is my understaning that St Alexis Toth formed the Greek Catholic Russian Orthodox chruch for 2 reasons primarily.
  1. The Irish and German bishops resited the whole Greek Catholic premise and tried to force them into Latin Catholicism.
  2. They refused faculties to married Russyn priests.
I was unaware that Greek Catholic Rusian Orthodox faithful had ever returned to Europe and tried to establish the CGROC there, I think this all had nothing to do with the Great War.
Click to expand...
You might consider reading the thesis. The documentation of people returning to the kraj is given in detail. It is less clear however, whether or not these people were a driving influence in the Orthodox movement or whether it was more from the direct statecraft of Moscow, that was receptive to the Russophile, pan-Slavic, Russian Messianism movements of the time. These movements are very well-known as is their importance to tense relations between the A-H and Russian empires. It is very plausible that, absent the spark in the Balkans, a war between A-H and Russia was inevitable.

The issue 2 that you raise was important. Issue 1 is more subtle than you state it. It is noted in the thesis, that the climate with the Latin bishops applied to all of the clergy and hierarchs, but only Toth went to the OC (along with three other clergy who later returned to the GCC.) The idea is that Toth was pre-disposed from the outset to leaving the CC.
 
Nine_Two said:
Funny, so many Catholics criticize us because they claim we don’t worry about missions.
Click to expand...
This was not missionary activity.:rolleyes: In the US, it was well-finaced proselytism pure and simple; in the stara kraj, proselytism laced with designs of conquest.
 
Defend_the_Keys said:
.I think it is sadly ironic that many of the Greek-Catholic converts to Orthodoxy in the USA did so because they believed it was a way to preserve their traditions. Unfortunately if you go to an OCA or RCOR service today, my understanding is that there is little to no remnants of Carpatho-Rusyn or Galician plainchant or other localized traditions as they were swallowed up by the dominant Russian majority. This is a stark contrast to a modern Ruthenian Catholic parish that has preserved the Carpatho-Russian traditions to a very great extent.
Click to expand...
The point about the OCA is well taken. There was pressure early against CR, Galician, or Lemko traditions - although some of it was self-imposed. (Fr Toth was eventually unwelcome in Minneapolis; the parish wanted a Russian not a Magyar priest.)

If you read the early history of the OCA you will see that early on there was a short lived effort to have a CR “diocese” with a CR bishop, but this effort failed and the bishop returned to the BCC.

Even through it is estimated ( commonly cited number on the Indiana list) that about 60% of the OCA members are decendants of CRs (probably including Lemko and perhaps Galicians), there are few parishes that use much Carpathian chant. Many more, however, have holubki, pyrohy, and kolaci. 😉
 
Sorry: that should of course be Fr Toth in the last paragraph of post 17.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top