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bpbasilphx
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One has already been quoted on this thread.
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Ghosty
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If there were other Byzantine-rite Catholic churches in the area, this thread likely wouldn’t even be here. In their case as it is the Greek Orthodox Church is the only thing nearby that follows the Rite and tradition of the OP’s husband.No, no, no, bpbasilphx, that is not what I am saying.
This thread is about the “Greek Orthodox Church” which is not under the authority of Our Holy Father in Rome. It is a non-Catholic church.
If the husband of the OP would attend an Eastern Rite that is Catholic (and I know there are many such rites) then that would be a different story; they are Catholic and under the authority of Rome.
In that situation I would find nothing wrong at all with his wife attending such service and she would be fulfilling her obligation to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days.
A problem on almost all threads on this forum is confusing the Greek Orthodox Church with Eastern Catholic churches. They are not the same, or has some statement come from the Vatican recently stating differently.
Again, there is no confusion going on here. If there was confusion between Greek Orthodox and Melkite Churches, the OP wouldn’t have even asked the question. One thing you must understand is that the Latin tradition is not the same as the Byzantine, and one can’t expect a Melkite Catholic to simply drop their tradition just because the only Catholic churches nearby are Latin. It’s because of such practices that the various Eastern Catholic Churches are losing members to the Latin Church, and some of them are dying out.
In cases such as these, the Catholic tradition of the Melkite Church is best preserved by maintaining the practice in full, not simply by paying it lip-service while attending a Latin parish. The way to do that would be for them to attend a Greek Orthodox parish until such time as a Melkite parish is available in their area. That isn’t abandoning the Catholic Faith, it’s maintaining it; to leave behind the Melkite tradition would be to abandon the Catholic Faith, and would be against the dictates of Popes and Councils which have explicitely said that non-Latin Catholics must maintain their traditions and not become Latins out of convenience.
Peace and God bless!
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mullenpm
Guest
Ghosty, I am not talking about the husband of the OP attending any Orthodox service he choses to attend; although, I don’t remember the OP saying there were no Eastern Catholic services available.
I am saying that the Roman Catholic wife (the OP) should not be expected to attend a Greek Orthodox church because her husband wishes to attend. She WILL NOT be fulfilling her obligation to attend Mass on Sunday and Holy Days and, in fact, will be endangering her immortal soul because she will be commiting a grave sin by not attending Mass.
And, why would someone wish to attend a church where that person does not believe the doctrines of that church simply to accommodate a spouse. Would they even allow her to receive Holy Communion?
My worry is now that the OP appears to have left this thread and she believes that she is in the right by attending the Greek Orthodox church because of advice from this thread.
I am saying that the Roman Catholic wife (the OP) should not be expected to attend a Greek Orthodox church because her husband wishes to attend. She WILL NOT be fulfilling her obligation to attend Mass on Sunday and Holy Days and, in fact, will be endangering her immortal soul because she will be commiting a grave sin by not attending Mass.
And, why would someone wish to attend a church where that person does not believe the doctrines of that church simply to accommodate a spouse. Would they even allow her to receive Holy Communion?
My worry is now that the OP appears to have left this thread and she believes that she is in the right by attending the Greek Orthodox church because of advice from this thread.
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misterdasher
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and earlier:
CIC IV.I.844.2 (available at vatican.va/archive/) is probably the canon that governs the wife’s circumstance. This seems also to be the point clarified in CCC 1399 (also available at vatican.va/catechism/), which references the II Vatican decree on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, section 15.
Various papal encyclicals, pontifical commissions, apostolic letters and exhortations, and a variety of supporting documents from the ordinary magisterium are also available. One useful starting point might be the Balamand statement, particularly paragraphs 13-15, but especially paragraph 15. Also paragraph 29, which emphasizes that all of the actions of the clergy are properly oriented toward the good of the faithful, and several references (summarized in the final paragraph) on the exclusion (yes, exclusion) of proselytism between Catholic & Orthodox churches. You can find copies scattered around the internet, including from the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity’s Balamand statement.
I wonder, though, whether you haven’t come across something that everyone seems to have overlooked? If so, please post a URL or excerpts from the book or journal article, since it would absolutely be germaine to the discussion.
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Ghosty
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If the wife chooses to attend, it’s up to her. The obligation to attend is to a Catholic Rite, which is what the Greek Orthodox have (the Byzantine rite is indeed Catholic). She would be in danger if she was trying to break with the Church (as would her husband), but that isn’t what’s going on.Ghosty, I am not talking about the husband of the OP attending any Orthodox service he choses to attend; although, I don’t remember the OP saying there were no Eastern Catholic services available.
I am saying that the Roman Catholic wife (the OP) should not be expected to attend a Greek Orthodox church because her husband wishes to attend. She WILL NOT be fulfilling her obligation to attend Mass on Sunday and Holy Days and, in fact, will be endangering her immortal soul because she will be commiting a grave sin by not attending Mass.
And, why would someone wish to attend a church where that person does not believe the doctrines of that church simply to accommodate a spouse. Would they even allow her to receive Holy Communion?
My worry is now that the OP appears to have left this thread and she believes that she is in the right by attending the Greek Orthodox church because of advice from this thread.
To quote the Vatican II document cited by the previous poster:
The approval has been given by the 1983 Code of Canon Law, so the issue seems to be settled.
Peace and God bless!
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StillWondering
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Regarding this canon quoted by Ghostly, I do not automatically see this is permissible for the couple to attend the Byzantine Liturgy in place of one by a Catholic church.
In particular “physical or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister” seems to not be the case here. Are they in a location where they cannot attend a Catholic church for the sacraments? I can see attending both, one to fulfill the Sunday obligation as well as receiving the Sacraments and the other, the Byzantine Liturgy, to continue the tradition.
In addition, it seems that only is it morally or physically impossible to receive the Sacraments from a Catholic minister than it is permitted to receive from another minister with valid orders. This seems to suggest the OP should not receive communion at the Greek church unless she cannot receive it anywhere else.
Lastly, in a related question with those that only have SSPX churches in the vicinity and no Catholic churches in full communion with the Pope and have the faculties to pastorally care for these parishioners, they are exempt from the Sunday obligation.
So I guess my question is on the assumption, are they not able to attend a Catholic liturgy nor have their sacraments administered by a Catholic minister?
Secondly, the quote from the 1983 canon law *requires *the approval of Church authority to actively worship in this setting as well as the suitable circumstances. The circumstances will be clarified form the answer to the previous question by the OP. The approval of Church authority here is most likely absent. If it was present, the OP would be in doubt of the authority of the Church to seek guidance from forum members. Thus, if the approval is absent, she will need approval to attend this Liturgy on a regular basis to provide for her spiritual needs.
Simply visiting without receiving any sacraments would not involve any canons that I can see.
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MAG777
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My husband and I are parishoners of a Roman Catholic church. He feels he may be more comfortable at an Easter church. Is it not better to attend an Orthodox church than none at all? Their sacraments are valid.
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misterdasher
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If the OP were single, that canon might have a bit more application to the situation. As it is, she’s married. Canon law and custom, IIRC, favors the Eastern Church if one of the spouses is Latin, and otherwise favors the husband’s Church. (Someone please correct me if I’m wrong. Citations welcome either way.)
In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part II, Section 2, Chapter 1, Article 3, Section VI, paragraph 1399:
The husband is Melkite. The “approval of Church authority” has been granted by the Melkite Church for Melkite Catholics and the Antiochian Orthodox to practice intercommunion. The Synod left it to local clergy to work out the details.
As Ghosty said in his initial response, “As for receiving Communion, approach the priest and let him know your situation; it’s possible that you will be allowed to receive, but not certain.”
I thought he said this because not all Orthodox accept the intercommunion that exists between the Antiochian Orthodox and the Melkite Greek Catholics. (Ghosty, please correct me if I’m wrong.)
But, as the Catechism and the Melkite Church teach, the OP should not feel restrained from fulfilling her Sunday obligation at a Greek Orthodox Church for the reasons described, so long as the local Orthodox (i.e., ordinary) authority concurs. The OP has, for all intents and purposes, already received, by virtue of her marriage to a Melkite Catholic, permission from the Latin Church.
I’m not sure that the canon is intended to convey an “anywhere else than there” attitude toward the Orthodox, at least in the case of a marriage between spouses of different particular Churches. That, though, is probably a discussion for another thread…
Remember that the only party in the marriage subject in any way to the CIC (Codex Iuris Canonici, the Code of Canon Law, which applies only to Catholics of the Roman Rite) - is the wife, the OP, who is canonically a member of the Church variously called “Roman” or “Western” or “Latin”, though perhaps not in practice.
The husband is, as he was before their marriage, subject to the rules, norms and practices of his Church, some of which are laid out in the CCEO. Now that they are married, IIRC, the family becomes subject to the husband’s rite. The wife is, barring a change of rite, still canonically a member of the Latin Church, but all of their children, under the norms of all Catholic Churches, will belong to the husband’s church. The only exception to this is, IIRC, if the situation were reversed. Then the norms and laws of all Catholic Churches favor the non-Latin rite, such that the children can be raised in a different church.
Remember, too, that Canon 1 - the very first canon of the 1983 code - reads (in English), “The canons of this Code regard only the Latin Church.” In fact, the whole of the introductory canons deserve to be read, particularly to enjoy the broad swath of things that the CIC expressly does not govern. Click “Next” to keep reading. Canon law, Latin and Eastern, isn’t like American law, where we are endlessly seeking to nail down each and every exception and circumstance so that no one will have any questions, doubts, breathing room, or even a remote idea what the law actually says. (I’m thinking especially of tax law.
)A final note (a special reward for those who made it this far…): Latin participants in this thread (which, canonically, includes me), might benefit greatly from reading Dr. Ed Peters’ article, Liturgical Law: The Last Labyrinth. Canon law is much different, in purpose, scope and intent, from American civil law. Although IANACL, so I could be wrong about that.
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misterdasher
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Yes.
It is better to attend an Orthodox parish. Especially if the alternative is not to attend any parish at all.Ghosty is a practicing Melkite. He gave you good advice. If there’s no Eastern Catholic parish nearby, ask the priest at one of the local Orthodox Churches.
If you have questions, call the Melkite Eparchy. Of course, you’ll probably want to do that, anyway. I have heard that they deal with this sort of thing a lot.
The Church exists to defend the spiritual welfare of your family. She wants you and your husband receiving the Sacraments and growing in the life of grace (as they say in the Latin world) together. But do call the Eparchy on Monday. Or call a priest at one of the Melkite parishes around the country. They’ll help you and guide you, and be able to walk you through the particulars of your circumstances.
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mullenpm
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I absolutely cannot understand the posts on this thread.
What I do not understand is why is everyone ignoring the fact that the Greek Orthodox Church is not Catholic. When the Orthodox members split with the Catholic Church it was because of doctrinal issues and the authority of the Holy Father in Rome.
Over three quarters of the Eastern churches returned to the authority of Rome but the Greek Orthodox Church did not and neither did the Russian Orthodox Church. Neither accept the authority of Our Holy Father.
Unless the OP lives in a small village I find it hard to believe that she cannot find an Eastern Catholic Church where her husband could attend and she could legitimately accompany him.
Even so, since they are already members of a Catholic Parish, leaving her Catholic Church to attend a Church not under the authority of Rome is wrong, IMHO.
But, I give up. I will continue to pray for the OP so that she will not leave the Catholic faith to attend a church outside of our religion. And in such an important matter, why would she accept the advice of posters on a Catholic Forum instead of discussing this matter with her own Parish Priest?
What I do not understand is why is everyone ignoring the fact that the Greek Orthodox Church is not Catholic. When the Orthodox members split with the Catholic Church it was because of doctrinal issues and the authority of the Holy Father in Rome.
Over three quarters of the Eastern churches returned to the authority of Rome but the Greek Orthodox Church did not and neither did the Russian Orthodox Church. Neither accept the authority of Our Holy Father.
Unless the OP lives in a small village I find it hard to believe that she cannot find an Eastern Catholic Church where her husband could attend and she could legitimately accompany him.
Even so, since they are already members of a Catholic Parish, leaving her Catholic Church to attend a Church not under the authority of Rome is wrong, IMHO.
But, I give up. I will continue to pray for the OP so that she will not leave the Catholic faith to attend a church outside of our religion. And in such an important matter, why would she accept the advice of posters on a Catholic Forum instead of discussing this matter with her own Parish Priest?
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Secret_Square
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Some years ago, my husband became more interested in his Greek heritage and began attending a Greek Orthodox church out of curiosity. (One of his grandparents, whom he never knew personally because he died before my husband was born, was a Greek immigrant.) He attended regularly for almost a year and for a while he was seriously considering conversion. However, his interest eventually waned and now he doesn’t attend any church regularly. (We are both officially Latin Rite Catholics)
I knew at the time that the Catholic Church recognized Orthodox sacraments and priesthood, and that the Real Presence existed in their Eucharist as much as in ours, although Orthodox church discipline didn’t allow Catholics to receive Communion in their church. I didn’t like the idea of my husband leaving the Catholic Church but figured that if he left to become Orthodox, I shouldn’t be too upset since at least he’d still be getting valid sacraments. I also assumed that if he joined the Orthodox Church we would have to attend separate liturgies or else I would have to attend church twice (Catholic Mass and Orthodox Divine Liturgy) every weekend.
However, this thread is the first indication I have ever had that if my husband HAD become Orthodox, I could have 1) fulfilled my Sunday obligation by attending Divine Liturgy with him and 2) could have actually joined the Orthodox parish myself and started taking Communion there, and it would have been legit in the eyes of (Latin Rite) Catholic law.
If that is true (and there seems to be some dispute here as to whether it is), I wish I had known that at the time, so I could have encouraged instead of discouraging my husband from becoming Orthodox. I have wondered for a long time if he wouldn’t have been better off being a happy Orthodox instead of a disgruntled Catholic.
I knew at the time that the Catholic Church recognized Orthodox sacraments and priesthood, and that the Real Presence existed in their Eucharist as much as in ours, although Orthodox church discipline didn’t allow Catholics to receive Communion in their church. I didn’t like the idea of my husband leaving the Catholic Church but figured that if he left to become Orthodox, I shouldn’t be too upset since at least he’d still be getting valid sacraments. I also assumed that if he joined the Orthodox Church we would have to attend separate liturgies or else I would have to attend church twice (Catholic Mass and Orthodox Divine Liturgy) every weekend.
However, this thread is the first indication I have ever had that if my husband HAD become Orthodox, I could have 1) fulfilled my Sunday obligation by attending Divine Liturgy with him and 2) could have actually joined the Orthodox parish myself and started taking Communion there, and it would have been legit in the eyes of (Latin Rite) Catholic law.
If that is true (and there seems to be some dispute here as to whether it is), I wish I had known that at the time, so I could have encouraged instead of discouraging my husband from becoming Orthodox. I have wondered for a long time if he wouldn’t have been better off being a happy Orthodox instead of a disgruntled Catholic.
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mardukm
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Dear sister Secret Square,
Blessings
From your story, it does not seem you ever considered Byzantine Catholicism. Did you not know that such Churches existed, or is it because there are no Byzantine Catholic Churches in your area?
Blessings
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Adonia
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As a Roman Catholic, upon attending an Orthodox service for the first time, I did what you stated and was refused Communion. I understood perfectly, which was why I asked the Priest. Seems to me though, whenever the Roman Pope or Bishops have had ecumenical services with oue Greek Orthodox bretheren, they probably shared Communion. Have you ever heard anything about this happening?
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Secret_Square
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There are no Byzantine churches in our area (downstate Illinois). The only Eastern Rite parish that I know of between Chicago and St. Louis is a Maronite Rite parish (St. Sharbel) in Peoria, which serves a large Lebanese community, but he was not interested in that.
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Secret_Square
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At the time my husband’s exploration of Greek Orthodoxy was taking place, I was visiting a Catholic priest regularly for spiritual direction. This priest had a canon law degree and had sat on the diocesan marriage tribunal. He was very much orthodox (in the small ‘o’ sense). I told him all about our situation, but he never mentioned the possibility that I could “count” Orthodox Divine Liturgy as my Sunday obligation. Perhaps he wasn’t as familiar with that part of canon law, or else he didn’t want to bring it up unless or until it became clear there was no other alternative.
I should add that there were certain aspects of Orthodox praxis that really appealed to me, particularly the tradition of allowing children to receive all the sacraments of initiation (baptism, confirmation/chrismation and Eucharist) in infancy. I know that some Eastern Rite Catholic churches do this too.
We have a daughter, now 13, who is mildly autistic. At the time hubby’s Orthodox exploration was going on, she had just been diagnosed with autism, and I was very concerned about how she was going to be prepared to receive Communion or Confirmation as a Catholic with all the catechetical requirements. The Eastern approach – that children need not understand the operation of the sacraments in order to benefit and receive grace from them, just as we need not be experts in nutrition in order to be nourished by consuming earthly food – would have removed this worry.
As it turned out, however, she did go through a regular CCD class and received her first Communion “on time” (8 years old). Now I have to get her ready for Confirmation, which the DRE at our parish thinks should not be a problem – the fact that she attends Mass every Sunday, knows the Ten Commandments and all her prayers, enjoys praying the rosary and the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, and recognizes many of the saints puts her way ahead of a lot of “normal” Catholic kids her age
But, I digress.
I should add that there were certain aspects of Orthodox praxis that really appealed to me, particularly the tradition of allowing children to receive all the sacraments of initiation (baptism, confirmation/chrismation and Eucharist) in infancy. I know that some Eastern Rite Catholic churches do this too.
We have a daughter, now 13, who is mildly autistic. At the time hubby’s Orthodox exploration was going on, she had just been diagnosed with autism, and I was very concerned about how she was going to be prepared to receive Communion or Confirmation as a Catholic with all the catechetical requirements. The Eastern approach – that children need not understand the operation of the sacraments in order to benefit and receive grace from them, just as we need not be experts in nutrition in order to be nourished by consuming earthly food – would have removed this worry.
As it turned out, however, she did go through a regular CCD class and received her first Communion “on time” (8 years old). Now I have to get her ready for Confirmation, which the DRE at our parish thinks should not be a problem – the fact that she attends Mass every Sunday, knows the Ten Commandments and all her prayers, enjoys praying the rosary and the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, and recognizes many of the saints puts her way ahead of a lot of “normal” Catholic kids her age
But, I digress.
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Ghosty
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It is Catholic Canon Law that our Sacraments (at least things like Communion and Confession) are open to the Orthodox without question. In such public events, however, I very much doubt that the Eastern Orthodox hierarchy received Communion, not because of Catholic limitations, but their own. Such reception has been known to cause severe scandal among the Eastern Orthodox (not so much with the Oriental Orthodox; I’ve received Communion from a Syriac Orthodox priest who was concelebrating with our Melkite bishop at our parish).
Peace and God bless!
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Ghosty
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I agree that she should talk to her priest, but most Latin priests are not well versed in these issues. That being said, it’s highly inappropriate to call the Eastern Orthodox “outside of our religion”. Outside of our Communion, yes, but they absolutely share our Faith.I absolutely cannot understand the posts on this thread.
What I do not understand is why is everyone ignoring the fact that the Greek Orthodox Church is not Catholic. When the Orthodox members split with the Catholic Church it was because of doctrinal issues and the authority of the Holy Father in Rome.
Over three quarters of the Eastern churches returned to the authority of Rome but the Greek Orthodox Church did not and neither did the Russian Orthodox Church. Neither accept the authority of Our Holy Father.
Unless the OP lives in a small village I find it hard to believe that she cannot find an Eastern Catholic Church where her husband could attend and she could legitimately accompany him.
Even so, since they are already members of a Catholic Parish, leaving her Catholic Church to attend a Church not under the authority of Rome is wrong, IMHO.
But, I give up. I will continue to pray for the OP so that she will not leave the Catholic faith to attend a church outside of our religion. And in such an important matter, why would she accept the advice of posters on a Catholic Forum instead of discussing this matter with her own Parish Priest?
As for the availability of Eastern Catholic parishes, they are often very rare outside of specific locales, and even if there is an Eastern Catholic parish of one tradition that doesn’t mean there is one for all; the Eastern Catholic traditions are not the same. For many years Seattle had only a Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic parish, which means that Maronites, Copts, Syriacs, Chaldeans, ect. had no Catholic churches that upheld their traditions. Even the Ruthenian parish might be off-putting to other Byzantines not of the Slavic sub-tradition (Melkites, for example, would find it a very strange place).
Remember, none of this is about leaving the Catholic Church, it’s about the spiritual needs of the Catholics in question. That is precisely the kind of case that the Canons cited are geared towards.
Peace and God bless!
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bkovacs
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The Greek Orthodox like the Roman Catholic Church and Melkite church is both Orthodox and Catholic. Being an Eastern Catholic means that you are Orthodox in communion with Rome. Catholic means communion with the universal church, not just the Pope. The Greek Orthodox are part of, but not in a perfect communion, with the universal Church. I would recommend the OP sticking with his Byzantine tradition. Part of the problem with inter mixing traditions is what came to be known as Latinization of the Eastern Churches. We are told to remain faithful to our traditions. In the Middle East there is plenty of intercommunion going on between Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics.I absolutely cannot understand the posts on this thread.
What I do not understand is why is everyone ignoring the fact that the Greek Orthodox Church is not Catholic. When the Orthodox members split with the Catholic Church it was because of doctrinal issues and the authority of the Holy Father in Rome.
Over three quarters of the Eastern churches returned to the authority of Rome but the Greek Orthodox Church did not and neither did the Russian Orthodox Church. Neither accept the authority of Our Holy Father.
Unless the OP lives in a small village I find it hard to believe that she cannot find an Eastern Catholic Church where her husband could attend and she could legitimately accompany him.
Even so, since they are already members of a Catholic Parish, leaving her Catholic Church to attend a Church not under the authority of Rome is wrong, IMHO.
But, I give up. I will continue to pray for the OP so that she will not leave the Catholic faith to attend a church outside of our religion. And in such an important matter, why would she accept the advice of posters on a Catholic Forum instead of discussing this matter with her own Parish Priest?
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Hesychios
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There is a theory that this was also the common practice in the western church, very early on… very likely the case in Gaul, which was evangelized by missioners from Asia Minor to a great extent
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Hesychios
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This opinion is debatable on more than one level.
I am not sure in what sense you mean three quarters… Can you provide a reference, or is this just a bit of hyperbole?
I believe Eastern Catholics worldwide number about 18,000,000, almost equally split between those with non-Chalcedonian origins and those with Chalcedonian origins.
I am not in possession of the latest information from the AP.
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