Greek Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic

[Amadeus]

x x x

• And the Orthodox Church is close to communion with the Vatican, keeping its impressive culture, traditions, similar to the 22 Eastern Orthodox Churches. I attended the Ravenna Conference report at Catholic University last winter at Catholic University, by the Principal Negotiators. Principles have been agreed, including the Pope being the Primary Bishop/Metropolitan.

A few clarifications:

(1) The reunion between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches, as a corporate body, is not thisclose as opined. The Ravenna meeting of the International Commission in the Fall of 2007 was merely the last step in a series of joint discussions and it did not indicate a final act of rapprochement between East and West. (There are also similar talks between the Catholic Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches and between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, the other two Eastern Apostolic group of Churches.)

(2) The Eastern Orthodox Churches are represented in the International Commission by the 15 Autocephalous Churches (with 2 delegates each). It is important to note that the *Ravenna Document *was not unanimously approved by the Orthodox side; the Russian delegates (led by Bishop Hilarion of Vienna) walked out of the meeting prior to the consideration of the document and Bulagaria’s delegates were again absent without explanation. The respective representations of the other 13 Autocephalous Churches voted in favor of the Ravenna Document.

(3) The critical point of agreement that can be gleaned from the *Ravenna Document *is that the Eastern Orthodox Churches have now come to recognize the existence of a *Protos (*or a Primus) in the Church at the universal level.

(4) At the next meeting of the International Commission (probably in the Fall of next year or in 2010), the delegates will be discussing on who that *Protos *could be (the Eastern Orthodox Churches recognize Rome has primacy of honor but somehow “lost” it) and how the office or role can be effectively exercised in a reunified Church.

Let’s hope and pray that the dialogues will lead to reunification of the East and West.

 

[Sailka]

A few clarifications:

(1) The reunion between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches, as a corporate body, is not thisclose as opined. The Ravenna meeting of the International Commission in the Fall of 2007 was merely the last step in a series of joint discussions and it did not indicate a final act of rapprochement between East and West. (There are also similar talks between the Catholic Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches and between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, the other two Eastern Apostolic group of Churches.)

(2) The Eastern Orthodox Churches are represented in the International Commission by the 15 Autocephalous Churches (with 2 delegates each). It is important to note that the *Ravenna Document *was not unanimously approved by the Orthodox side; the Russian delegates (led by Bishop Hilarion of Vienna) walked out of the meeting prior to the consideration of the document and Bulagaria’s delegates were again absent without explanation. The respective representations of the other 13 Autocephalous Churches voted in favor of the Ravenna Document.

(3) The critical point of agreement that can be gleaned from the *Ravenna Document *is that the Eastern Orthodox Churches have now come to recognize the existence of a *Protos (*or a Primus) in the Church at the universal level.

(4) At the next meeting of the International Commission (probably in the Fall of next year or in 2010), the delegates will be discussing on who that *Protos *could be (the Eastern Orthodox Churches recognize Rome has primacy of honor but somehow “lost” it) and how the office or role can be effectively exercised in a reunified Church.

Let’s hope and pray that the dialogues will lead to reunification of the East and West.

Well said. But I did not say reunion, although that seems the intent of the ongoing negotiations. I have been thinking communion, as already exists with about 22 Eastern Churches.
And I did not mean in a year or two. The apparent timerframe is a decade or so. A prime motivator is the big growth of secularism, as the Russian Orthodox Patriarch cited during the last couple of years in sending a Metropoliton to the World Eucharistic Conference this year, and the World Family Conference in Spain last year. :byzsoc:

 

[Stewmont]

Byzantine/Greek Catholics should never be afraid of the Orthodox Church. We came from Holy Orthodoxy and will one day return home.

Actually Eastern Catholics came Home to the Catholic Church after being in imperfect communion for a number of years. I believe the only exception are the Maronite Catholics. An Eastern Catholic church that never left Home.

 

[Stewmont]

No big surprise. Whether one is from the Church of Rome or from the Church of Carpatho-Rus’ (for example), each of us is likely more spiritually comfortable immersed in the patrimony, theology and ecclesiology of our own particular church.

…I personally would attend most Orthodox Churches for a Sunday Divine Liturgy vs. attending a NO Roman Catholic liturgy. ** I personally get nothing out of attending a Roman Catholic liturgy…**

Being “more spiritually comfortable” is hugely different than “I personally get nothing out of attending a Roman Catholic liturgy.”

If the latter was honestly true for any Eastern Catholic (I’m not really sure that it can be) then they face a very grave challenge.

 

[Aramis]

Actually Eastern Catholics came Home to the Catholic Church after being in imperfect communion for a number of years. I believe the only exception are the Maronite Catholics. An Eastern Catholic church that never left Home.

The Italo-Albanians as well.

The Italo-Albanians remained not only in union, but in contact.

The Maronites remained devoted to union, but lost contact for several centuries. Upon recontact, they immediately returned to full visible union.

 

[Ivan_Putovati]

Actually Eastern Catholics came Home to the Catholic Church after being in imperfect communion for a number of years. I believe the only exception are the Maronite Catholics. An Eastern Catholic church that never left Home.

---

We have two key issues. The unions are one and the hoped for reunion of the local Church of Rome and the various Orthodox local churches is another. Of course they are connected. When that happens, then we truly will have One, Holy, Catholic Church. East and West will be one. Until that time our divisions remain scandalous to the Body of our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ

From the time of the Unions, the Greko-Catholic Churches have been in communion with the Church of Rome, but out of communion with our mother churches. Seems like an imperfect communion to me

 

[Ghosty]

From the time of the Unions, the Greko-Catholic Churches have been in communion with the Church of Rome, but out of communion with our mother churches. Seems like an imperfect communion to me

I dunno, I would argue that this isn’t the case for the Melkite Church, since it was the Patriarch and most of the Synod that came into Communion with Rome; it was a splinter group of a handful of bishops who remained with Constantinople and became the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

So the question might be, when will the Antiochian Orthodox Church follow in the footsteps of its “mother Church”.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Byzantine/Greek Catholics should never be afraid of the Orthodox Church. We came from Holy Orthodoxy and will one day return home.

I think it is more proper to say that we have already returned home and are awaiting to reunite with our Orthodox brethern when they also return home.

 

[Ungcsertez]

Ungcsertez;4459641:

Take a second to re-read those words. If you are a Catholic Christian then it is a most chilling thing to say. If you are blessed with have a spiritual adviser I would discuss it with him.

It is just my personal opinion. I feel more at home when I attend a Sunday Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox Church, than I do attending a NO Roman Catholic liturgy.

Why? I give you an example. I happened to catch a radio broadcast of a Roman Catholic liturgy from Brooklyn NY this past Sunday morning. The liturgy was quickly recited and over in 23 minutes. Now the shortness of the liturgy didn’t bother me. It was the fact that the entire liturgy was recited up to the distribution of the Holy Eucharist. Then there was some modern NO liturgical Communion song sung w/piano accompaniment that lasted about 5 minutes long and sounded like some lounge singer act. Who approves this type of liturgical music nonsense?

U-C

 

[Amadeus]

It is just my personal opinion. I feel more at home when I attend a Sunday Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox Church, than I do attending a NO Roman Catholic liturgy.

Why? I give you an example. I happened to catch a radio broadcast of a Roman Catholic liturgy from Brooklyn NY this past Sunday morning. The liturgy was quickly recited and over in 23 minutes. Now the shortness of the liturgy didn’t bother me. It was the fact that the entire liturgy was recited up to the distribution of the Holy Eucharist. Then there was some modern NO liturgical Communion song sung w/piano accompaniment that lasted about 5 minutes long and sounded like some lounge singer act. Who approves this type of liturgical music nonsense?

U-C

Since you are an Eastern Catholic (as of now), some of us might be more interested in your appreciation of the Divine Liturgy as celebrated in your particular Eastern Catholic Church versus any Orthodox Church?

 

[Abbendis]

Imperator;4467038:

It is just my personal opinion. I feel more at home when I attend a Sunday Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox Church, than I do attending a NO Roman Catholic liturgy.

Why? I give you an example. I happened to catch a radio broadcast of a Roman Catholic liturgy from Brooklyn NY this past Sunday morning. The liturgy was quickly recited and over in 23 minutes. Now the shortness of the liturgy didn’t bother me. It was the fact that the entire liturgy was recited up to the distribution of the Holy Eucharist. Then there was some modern NO liturgical Communion song sung w/piano accompaniment that lasted about 5 minutes long and sounded like some lounge singer act. Who approves this type of liturgical music nonsense?

U-C

I have to agree with you on every point, it is not the Liturgy that bothers me (although the English could be better) it is the AWFUL music which makes it simply unbearable. It has gotten to the point where unless it is an inner city ethnic church where I know there will be real hymns and good music I won’t go to a Latin Catholic mass.

 

[Stewmont]

You said:

I personally would attend most Orthodox Churches for a Sunday Divine Liturgy vs. attending a NO Roman Catholic liturgy. ** I personally get nothing out of attending a Roman Catholic liturgy.**

and then:

It is just my personal opinion. I feel more at home when I attend a Sunday Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox Church, than I do attending a NO Roman Catholic liturgy.

Why? I give you an example. I happened to catch a radio broadcast of a Roman Catholic liturgy from Brooklyn NY this past Sunday morning. The liturgy was quickly recited and over in 23 minutes. Now the shortness of the liturgy didn’t bother me. It was the fact that the entire liturgy was recited up to the distribution of the Holy Eucharist. Then there was some modern NO liturgical Communion song sung w/piano accompaniment that lasted about 5 minutes long and sounded like some lounge singer act. Who approves this type of liturgical music nonsense?

U-C

I cannot imagine any well-catechized Catholic making such a comment. Think about what happens at ANY valid Mass (or Catholic sacrificial liturgy) whether or not it meets your personal tastes.

Jesus Christ is offered to His Father for the propitiation of our sins – past, current and future. We are able to stand at the foot of Calvary and partake of the salvific grace flowing from that ultimate Sacrifice. We are then invited to partake of His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity as written in Sacred Scripture.

How could ANY Catholic “personally get nothing out of attending a Roman Catholic liturgy.” That boggles my mind. I don’t understand how ANY Catholic could feel that way who actually understands the Mass – no matter it’s length or musical selection.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

**Note from Moderator:
**
Please return to the thread’s topic, which is the difference between the Greek Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic Churches. If you would like to discuss the Roman Catholic Mass, the Liturgy and Sacraments forum is the appropriate venue. If you would like to discuss preferring the Byzantine Divine Liturgy over the Roman Catholic Mass, please start a new thread on the Eastern Catholicism, Liturgy and Sacraments, or Traditional Catholicism forum, as appropriate.

May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant

 

[searn77]

I’m having a hard time finding the history of the Byzantine Catholic faith. Did they break off of Greek Orthodoxy to come in communion with the Pope? I heard that it was for political purposes, was it? Are there any good articles (or books) about the history of Byzantine Catholics, because I honestly haven’t found a clear article about it?

 

[Sailka]

I’m having a hard time finding the history of the Byzantine Catholic faith. Did they break off of Greek Orthodoxy to come in communion with the Pope? I heard that it was for political purposes, was it? Are there any good articles (or books) about the history of Byzantine Catholics, because I honestly haven’t found a clear article about it?

Great question, searn77; I’ve been wondering too. I know Byzantine and Orthodox Rite Churches in DC area. I’ll try to give an overview, and couple of complex links.

Byzantine seems to be the Eastern Orthodox Liturgy, of the 22 national, cultural Sects which returned to full communion with the Vatican and Pope. Each recognizes the Liturgy and Sacraments As Administered by the other, like Infant Communion and Confirmation in Byzantine. The Divine Liturgy is the very early Main Liturgy called the Mass in the Roman Church. The Essentials are the Same: Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist, but Orthodox use lot more Incense, has many different rites and prayetrs. They Chant, we tend to Sing. The Pope appoints the Byzantine Bishops, they offer.

The Orthodox are not yet in communion with the Vatican, although much closer The Principal Big Orthodox sects are Greek and Russian, each with own principal Prelate, the foremost being the Patriatrch of Constantinople (Formerly Byzantium, now Istanbul).

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches;

                                                                                           ...

www.byzcath.org/ - 34k

 

[Ghosty]

I’m having a hard time finding the history of the Byzantine Catholic faith. Did they break off of Greek Orthodoxy to come in communion with the Pope? I heard that it was for political purposes, was it? Are there any good articles (or books) about the history of Byzantine Catholics, because I honestly haven’t found a clear article about it?

Depends which Byzantine Churches you’re referring to. Some, like the “Byzantine Catholic Church”, were formed (according to some) due to political considerations. Others, like the Melkite Catholic Church, occurred because of Synodal decisions of the Patriarch and most of his Bishops (and this decision went against the political power of the time and area, the Ottoman Empire).

Is there a particular Church of the Byzantine tradition that you’re interested in?

Peace and God bless!

 

[Stewmont]

Depends which Byzantine Churches you’re referring to. Some, like the “Byzantine Catholic Church”, were formed (according to some) due to political considerations. Others, like the Melkite Catholic Church, occurred because of Synodal decisions of the Patriarch and most of his Bishops (and this decision went against the political power of the time and area, the Ottoman Empire).

Is there a particular Church of the Byzantine tradition that you’re interested in?

Peace and God bless!

I don’t know of a “Byzantine Catholic Church.” There are something like 14 of 15 recensions or traditions under the Bizantine Rite including the Melkites. Just about each one – if indeed not each one has its own history.

 

[Aramis]

Stewmont:

The Ruthenian Church in America is properly the “Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh, Sui Iuris.” And has been for around 2 decades.

(I think it was a bad name choice, because it creates unneeded confusion. It should either be the Ruthenian-American Byzantine Catholic Church, or the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church, or the Carpetho-Rusyn Byzantine Catholic Church… or even the American Byzantine Catholic Church (tho’ that’s presumptuous, too)…

 

[Ivan_Putovati]

Being “more spiritually comfortable” is hugely different than “I personally get nothing out of attending a Roman Catholic liturgy.”

If the latter was honestly true for any Eastern Catholic (I’m not really sure that it can be) then they face a very grave challenge.

---

IMHO we should bring together all the Byzantine Greek Catholics into one Byzantine Greek Catholic Church in America. Why have so many scattered resources?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Stewmont:

The Ruthenian Church in America is properly the “Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh, Sui Iuris.” And has been for around 2 decades.

(I think it was a bad name choice, because it creates unneeded confusion. It should either be the Ruthenian-American Byzantine Catholic Church, or the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church, or the Carpetho-Rusyn Byzantine Catholic Church… or even the American Byzantine Catholic Church (tho’ that’s presumptuous, too)…

Only thing I see wrong with this is that we are not an ethnic church any longer.

Also while removing one unneeded confusion, it creates another. That being, what is a Ruthenian.

---

IMHO we should bring together all the Byzantine Greek Catholics into one Byzantine Greek Catholic Church in America. Why have so many scattered resources?

Who would be in charge? Why should the Melkites and Ukranians leave their patriarchates?

Which recession of the liturgy would be used? Which languages would be used?