Greek Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic

[wmlillie]

I’m having a hard time finding the history of the Byzantine Catholic faith. Did they break off of Greek Orthodoxy to come in communion with the Pope? I heard that it was for political purposes, was it? Are there any good articles (or books) about the history of Byzantine Catholics, because I honestly haven’t found a clear article about it?

Here are a few online resouces for you:

The Byzantine Catholics by: Basil Shereghy
Eastern Rite Catholicism: It’s Heritage and Vocation By Fr. Robert Taft S.J.

Mike

 

[Sailka]

Only thing I see wrong with this is that we are not an ethnic church any longer.

Also while removing one unneeded confusion, it creates another. That being, [SIGN]what is a Ruthenian.[/SIGN]

Who would be in charge? Why should the Melkites and Ukranians leave their patriarchates?

Which recession of the liturgy would be used? Which languages would be used?

Searching Ruthenian reveals Central European Slavic culture, as well as the Ukraine, by some.

Melkites are far removed geographically and every way. Melkite is an Original Holy Land sect, and the name is now used only by Arab speaking Eastern Church which is in Union with the Vatican for centuries.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

• Searching Ruthenian reveals Central European Slavic culture, as well as the Ukraine, by some.
• Melkites are far removed geographically and every way. Melkite is an Original Holy Land sect, and the name is now used only by Arab speaking Eastern Church which is in Union with the Vatican for centuries.

And?

 

[Patchunky]

• Byzantine seems to be the Eastern Orthodox Liturgy, of the 22 national, cultural Sects which returned to full communion with the Vatican and Pope.

Just curious, but, EXACTLY when did the Byzantine Rite become a “SECT”???

Enquiring minds would like to know…

 

[Sailka]

And?

lol. Why would Byzantine Catholics ask Roman Catholics what Ruthenian is?

And why not teach Us, traditionally? :byzsoc:
Perhaps it is better to call 22 Eastern Traditions Churches instead of sects? You should be teaching Us. We Romans are eager to learn.
Like what are the 21-22 Eastern Churches in communion with the Vatican by Name?

 

[Sailka]

Just curious, but, EXACTLY when did the Byzantine Rite become a “SECT”???

Enquiring minds would like to know…

Roman Rite are eager to Learn “Eastern, Byzantine” nomenclature. What are the 21-22 Eastern/Byzantine Churches :byzsoc: in communion with the Vatican?

What are the Primary differences in Greek and Byzantine Catholic?

Please explain the titles of the Clergy of Each. Are they comparable names? Is an Archpriest comparable to a Latin Monsignor?

 

[Aramis]

Not all of the Eastern Churches are Byzantine.

The Armenian Catholic Church is Armenian Rite

The Chaldean, Syro-Malabar, Syro-Malankar, and Maronite Churches are Syriac Rite

The Coptic and Ethiopian Churches are Alexandrian Rite

There is at least one of the Antioch rite

Most of the REST are Byzantines…

The Most notable Byzantines:
The Ukrainian, The Ruthenian*, the Melkite**, Russian***

*The Ruthenian Church is darned near two ritual churches… AMerican and European. European Ruthenian Jurisdictions are direct papal dependencies, and not sui iuris; the American Metropolitan Church is sui iuris, but has no authority sharing other than the pope with the European Ruthenian Hierarchs… But, a Ruthenian from one side is canonically enrolled in the other as well…

** The Melkites are of the Antioch rite in origin, but are byzantified. They are fundamentally Byzantine, and from what I gather, the Rite of Antioch is the genesis of the Rite of Constantinople (the Byzantine).

*** Notable for the absolutel lack of bishops and yet being a major thorn in the Orthodox-Catholic dialogues. who knew than fewer than a dozen parishes worldwide could be SUCH a problem?

 

[Ivan_Putovati]

Only thing I see wrong with this is that we are not an ethnic church any longer.

Also while removing one unneeded confusion, it creates another. That being, what is a Ruthenian.

Who would be in charge? Why should the Melkites and Ukranians leave their patriarchates?

Which recession of the liturgy would be used? Which languages would be used?

---

I think the language would be English for North America. Why wouldn’t we have our own patriarchate here?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

• lol. Why would Byzantine Catholics ask Roman Catholics what Ruthenian is?

Maybe because it is a Roman Catholic who thinks we should be using this term in our Church’s name. Our Church is not an ethnic Church in America. We are pretty happy with our name as it is.

---

I think the language would be English for North America. Why wouldn’t we have our own patriarchate here?

Why? The Ukrainian’s us Ukrainian and the Melkites use Arab and Greek. Why should they get rid of them?

Which melodies do we use for the Liturgy? While we use the same rite there are differences.

Not to mention the fact that some of the more ethnic churches are still highly nationalistic.

 

[Patchunky]

Which melodies do we use for the Liturgy? While we use the same rite there are differences.

As long as it’s NOT those HORRID things written by JMT

 

[Sailka]

Not all of the Eastern Churches are Byzantine.

The Armenian Catholic Church is Armenian Rite

The Chaldean, Syro-Malabar, Syro-Malankar, and Maronite Churches are Syriac Rite

The Coptic and Ethiopian Churches are Alexandrian Rite

There is at least one of the Antioch rite

Most of the REST are Byzantines…

The Most notable Byzantines:
The Ukrainian, The Ruthenian*, the Melkite**, Russian***

*The Ruthenian Church is darned near two ritual churches… AMerican and European. European Ruthenian Jurisdictions are direct papal dependencies, and not sui iuris; the American Metropolitan Church is sui iuris, but has no authority sharing other than the pope with the European Ruthenian Hierarchs… But, a Ruthenian from one side is canonically enrolled in the other as well…

** The Melkites are of the Antioch rite in origin, but are byzantified. They are fundamentally Byzantine, and from what I gather, the Rite of Antioch is the genesis of the Rite of Constantinople (the Byzantine).

*** Notable for the absolutel lack of bishops and yet being a major thorn in the Orthodox-Catholic dialogues. who knew than fewer than a dozen parishes worldwide could be SUCH a problem?

What?

Can you explain Subdeacon, Archpriests, Patriarch, Metropolitan? We Roman Rite don’t understand.

All my Eastern, Byzantine acquaintances would strongly Argue at being called ‘papal dependencies, or even Roman’s’. They say they are Eastern, Byzantine, etc, only ‘in communion with the Vatican’

 

[Aramis]

Tony: The three European Ruthenian Ordinaries are not part of the Ruthenian Ritual Church for purposes of administration… while they share the same origins as the Pittsburgh Metropolitan Church (and in fact ARE the origins of same), their bishops answer directly to the Pope, and are appointed directly by the pope, and have to have all liturgical changes directly approved by the pope. Two are eparchies, one is an Exarchate.

Not to say that they SHOULD be that way; they should also have a metropolitan church organization, and be a separate Church Sui Iuris, since the Met. Church of Pittsburgh has a rather different expression of the rituals.

In simpler terms: Eastern Catholic ≠ Byzantine Catholic. Byzantine Catholic IS Eastern, but not all Eastern are Byzantine.

As for
Archpriest: Comparable to Monsignor.
Metropolitan: Archbishop with suffragan bishops.
Subdeacon: if you don’t know what a subdeaocn is, you were probably raised in the post V II Roman Rite… It is a minor order (it was considered major order in the Roman Rite until it was abolished by V II), and the lowest level of ordination ordianed specifically to assist the bishop, and the highest not to be a minister of holy communion. It is transitional for the deaconal candidate, but may also be a permanent ordination. It requires prior ordination to Lector and Acolyte, in those churches which use those minor ordinations.
Patriarch: Head bishop of a patriarchal church. For SUir Iuris Patriarchal Churches, his authority is a mirror of the Pope’s, in microcosm of the Patriarchal Church. (For non-Sui Iuris Patriarchal Churches, he’s just a metropolitan archbsihop… and is latin rite.)

 

[Sailka]

Tony: The three European Ruthenian Ordinaries are not part of the Ruthenian Ritual Church for purposes of administration… while they share the same origins as the Pittsburgh Metropolitan Church (and in fact ARE the origins of same), their bishops answer directly to the Pope, and are appointed directly by the pope, and have to have all liturgical changes directly approved by the pope. Two are eparchies, one is an Exarchate.

Not to say that they SHOULD be that way; they should also have a metropolitan church organization, and be a separate Church Sui Iuris, since the Met. Church of Pittsburgh has a rather different expression of the rituals.

In simpler terms: Eastern Catholic ≠ Byzantine Catholic. Byzantine Catholic IS Eastern, but not all Eastern are Byzantine.

As for
Archpriest: Comparable to Monsignor.
Metropolitan: Archbishop with suffragan bishops.
Subdeacon: if you don’t know what a subdeaocn is, you were probably raised in the post V II Roman Rite… It is a minor order (it was considered major order in the Roman Rite until it was abolished by V II), and the lowest level of ordination ordianed specifically to assist the bishop, and the highest not to be a minister of holy communion. It is transitional for the deaconal candidate, but may also be a permanent ordination. It requires prior ordination to Lector and Acolyte, in those churches which use those minor ordinations.
Patriarch: Head bishop of a patriarchal church. For SUir Iuris Patriarchal Churches, his authority is a mirror of the Pope’s, in microcosm of the Patriarchal Church. (For non-Sui Iuris Patriarchal Churches, he’s just a metropolitan archbsihop… and is latin rite.)

Thank you very much. I understand now. I had the privilege to happen to attend the Orthodox Metropolitan anointing 1 man to Subdeacon, one to Deacon, one to Reader, as I recall, at the local Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Pastor is a long time friend of mine, retired Air Force Lt Colonel with 2 Doctorates, doing the work He chose as key job, a small Orthodox Parish of 300 in Manassas VA. He began it as a Mission 13 years ago in a storage room of a carwash!. I just happened to be there!
And I got tears in my eyes, as others did, as the new subdeacon’s Baby Child received First Communion from the Pastor. I find the Divine Liturgy just as Moving, emotional as the Mass. They are different rituals of the same Last Supper, Communion as Our Lord blessed us with. Among His Greatest gifts to us. :byzsoc:

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Aramis,

Tony: The three European Ruthenian Ordinaries are not part of the Ruthenian Ritual Church for purposes of administration… while they share the same origins as the Pittsburgh Metropolitan Church (and in fact ARE the origins of same), their bishops answer directly to the Pope, and are appointed directly by the pope, and have to have all liturgical changes directly approved by the pope. Two are eparchies, one is an Exarchate.

Would you happen to know(?):

In the Eastern Code, one of the headings is “Metropolitan Churches and other sui juris Churches.” Does this mean that a Metropolitan Church CAN be a sui juris Church? If so, what would it take?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Diak]

The Patriarchate by its very nature should be a world-wide office residing in the historic see of its origin. So for the UGCC that would be Kyiv and for the Melkites Damascus/Antioch. I do not think there is a need for some kind of “American Patriarchate”; the present liturgical experiments towards a modern American particularity by the BCCA haven’t shown much promise but have shown quite a bit of dissatisfaction for many within the BCCA.

 

[ChantingMarine]

searn77;4459182:

1. If a Byzantine Catholic couldn’t go to his Church on Sunday for some reason and had to choose between a Greek Orthodox Church or a Roman Catholic Church, which one should he go to?

I personally would attend most Orthodox Churches for a Sunday Divine Liturgy vs. attending a NO Roman Catholic liturgy. I personally get nothing out of attending a Roman Catholic liturgy.

When I do attend an Orthodox Church for a Sunday Divine Liturgy, I do not present myself to receivce the Holy Eucharist as I am not a member of the Orthodox faith [not yet, but maybe in the future ].

U-C

You may however go up and receive a blessing at this time. Simply bow your head and say “Father, bless” he will make the sign of the cross over your head with the chalice.