G
geometer
Guest
I trust God.
- Status
J
juliamajor
Guest
Biblical scholars of any religion or non -religion reference the LXX and Targums.Any good scholar uses any manyscript he can get his hand on to get get to a truer sense of the text.Since we have no originals, biblical scholarship is the search to obtain the best and truest read of Scripture.
C
crazzeto
Guest
What are your specific beliefs, are you jewish?
G
geometer
Guest
What desperation…
F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Yes you are showing that.What desperation…
J
juliamajor
Guest
Either you know very little about biblical scholarship or you live on tthe planet Bizarro. there are some really good books on manuscripts and the texts apparently you’ve never availed yourself of.Bible MT or LXX are the result of hard work,sifting through papyrii and parchment , diving into genizah’s to find clues to the soundest most authentic text.What desperation…
Now that you’ve learned something you can go back to your delusional theories. Ta, Ta.
P
PeterK
Guest
geometer,
I find it less than coincidence that in the first reading of the Roman Catholic liturgy for today, oct 30, 09, Paul tells me how to understand the obstinate nature of your opposition.
I added the brackets for clarity and parsed the relevant verses.
Reading 1 - Rom 11:1-2a, 11-12, 25-29
Brothers and sisters [Catholics/Christians]:
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? [the Jews]
Of course not! For I too am a child of Israel, a descendant of Abraham,
of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people [the Jews] whom he foreknew.
…
But through their [the Jews’] transgression [rejection and execution of the Word-made-Flesh, Jesus the Son of God] salvation has come to the Gentiles [Catholics/Christians] so as to make them [the Jews] jealous.
… a hardening has come upon Israel [the Jews] in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, and thus all Israel will be saved, …
In respect to the Gospel, they [the Jews] are enemies on your account;
but in respect to election, they [the Jews] are beloved because of the patriarch.
For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
geometer,
Let’s face it. You are Jewish. Call yourself a Kabbalistic theosopher, whatever - you are essentially Jewish. So now Christ comes between us. It cannot be avoided. You reject the Christian claim that Jesus is the Word-made-flesh, the only begotten Son of God, One with the Father; not a human person like you and I, a divine person - THE Divine Person. You, understandably, in no manner, are open to any of this. You might say Jesus was a great rabbi, full of grace, or a prophet, but you reject, outright, that Jesus is indeed the very same as, one in being with, Yahweh. You reject that it was Jesus who spoke the commandments to Moses. We Catholics/Christians embrace what you reject. We also believe God as Jesus has established a new covenant with his people which renders obsolete those recounted in the old testament, and we Catholics/Christians are his people in this new covenant. Like the old covenant, his new covenant is actualized in religion with a priesthood, liturgy and worship. We Catholics believe that God came to earth as a divine in-fleshed person and established - institutionalized - the Catholic Church to maintain this new covenant between man and God. You, of course, understandably, reject all of this.
And I empathize with you.
Your whole life you hear Christians referring to Judaism as the old covenant, the Tanakh as the old testament. The sabbath is replaced by Sunday as the day of worship to the one God. Hebrew is replaced with Latin and Greek as the sacred language of true worship. The greatest liturgical celebration of the year for the Catholics/Christians has the ancient Jewish leaders killing the Son of God, which translates that the ancient Jewish religious leaders - who claimed to know the Torah - not only did not *know *God when he came as the Messiah, but they rejected him, slandered him, humiliated him, tortured him and killed him. It must be apparent that many Christians consider Judaism nothing more than a stepping stone or a relic of things past, an ancient ruins that the journey of salvation history once passed through and left behind.
I can never understand what it must be like to be Jewish, and I’m not going to pretend I can, but I can empathize.
I say all this to hopefully see the elephant in the living room. I’ll speak only for myself here. The wisdom of the rabbis is not authoritative for me. The teaching body of the Church Christ founded is authoritative, all else is insightful opinion. I’m not poo-pooing rabbinic tradition at all, it’s just not my tradition. I believe the Messiah has come. The rabbis are still waiting. Our traditions are very different.
To get back to my earlier post, this forum hails from the Catholic/Christian tradition. So it should not be surprising that some of the practices and preferences you hold as sacred in your tradition regarding the study of sacred scripture are going to be at odds with Catholic/Christian practices and preferences regarding the study of sacred scripture. It is unavoidable. And I can accept this.
Paul summed it up well. This is the reality we share.
shalom,
Peter K
I find it less than coincidence that in the first reading of the Roman Catholic liturgy for today, oct 30, 09, Paul tells me how to understand the obstinate nature of your opposition.
I added the brackets for clarity and parsed the relevant verses.
Reading 1 - Rom 11:1-2a, 11-12, 25-29
Brothers and sisters [Catholics/Christians]:
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? [the Jews]
Of course not! For I too am a child of Israel, a descendant of Abraham,
of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people [the Jews] whom he foreknew.
…
But through their [the Jews’] transgression [rejection and execution of the Word-made-Flesh, Jesus the Son of God] salvation has come to the Gentiles [Catholics/Christians] so as to make them [the Jews] jealous.
… a hardening has come upon Israel [the Jews] in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, and thus all Israel will be saved, …
In respect to the Gospel, they [the Jews] are enemies on your account;
but in respect to election, they [the Jews] are beloved because of the patriarch.
For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
geometer,
Let’s face it. You are Jewish. Call yourself a Kabbalistic theosopher, whatever - you are essentially Jewish. So now Christ comes between us. It cannot be avoided. You reject the Christian claim that Jesus is the Word-made-flesh, the only begotten Son of God, One with the Father; not a human person like you and I, a divine person - THE Divine Person. You, understandably, in no manner, are open to any of this. You might say Jesus was a great rabbi, full of grace, or a prophet, but you reject, outright, that Jesus is indeed the very same as, one in being with, Yahweh. You reject that it was Jesus who spoke the commandments to Moses. We Catholics/Christians embrace what you reject. We also believe God as Jesus has established a new covenant with his people which renders obsolete those recounted in the old testament, and we Catholics/Christians are his people in this new covenant. Like the old covenant, his new covenant is actualized in religion with a priesthood, liturgy and worship. We Catholics believe that God came to earth as a divine in-fleshed person and established - institutionalized - the Catholic Church to maintain this new covenant between man and God. You, of course, understandably, reject all of this.
And I empathize with you.
Your whole life you hear Christians referring to Judaism as the old covenant, the Tanakh as the old testament. The sabbath is replaced by Sunday as the day of worship to the one God. Hebrew is replaced with Latin and Greek as the sacred language of true worship. The greatest liturgical celebration of the year for the Catholics/Christians has the ancient Jewish leaders killing the Son of God, which translates that the ancient Jewish religious leaders - who claimed to know the Torah - not only did not *know *God when he came as the Messiah, but they rejected him, slandered him, humiliated him, tortured him and killed him. It must be apparent that many Christians consider Judaism nothing more than a stepping stone or a relic of things past, an ancient ruins that the journey of salvation history once passed through and left behind.
I can never understand what it must be like to be Jewish, and I’m not going to pretend I can, but I can empathize.
I say all this to hopefully see the elephant in the living room. I’ll speak only for myself here. The wisdom of the rabbis is not authoritative for me. The teaching body of the Church Christ founded is authoritative, all else is insightful opinion. I’m not poo-pooing rabbinic tradition at all, it’s just not my tradition. I believe the Messiah has come. The rabbis are still waiting. Our traditions are very different.
To get back to my earlier post, this forum hails from the Catholic/Christian tradition. So it should not be surprising that some of the practices and preferences you hold as sacred in your tradition regarding the study of sacred scripture are going to be at odds with Catholic/Christian practices and preferences regarding the study of sacred scripture. It is unavoidable. And I can accept this.
Paul summed it up well. This is the reality we share.
shalom,
Peter K
G
geometer
Guest
My mother from time to time says that I am Jewish. She is not Jewish though. I haven’t been confirmed or converted to any religion.
I trust God, and I did ask him a question when I was very young. He answered my question. So I know that if I have another question, I can ask him. I believe what he has told me, even though I still wait, while it unfolds.
I have only asked one question, but at that time when I was young, I also asked that he lead me to discover the way that his law was written in nature. It seems that he has done that.
Beyond these things I have asked for quite a variety of things. So you can understand that my religious practice is completely practical, and satisfying as a way of life.
Z
zach_dunn
Guest
geometer, may I ask what question you asked God?
G
geometer
Guest
Well, that was during the late 1950’s, when I was about nine years old. The children of my neighborhood had run into our yard arguing about the bottomless pit. Some argued that there was a bottomless pit, and others said it didn’t exist. I had no idea, and did not get involved. They stopped arguing by agreeing to disagree, and ran their seperate ways.
So in the silence after they had run off, I asked God, in my mind, Is there a bottomless pit?
He answered, “It will become known as the black hole.”
So, beyond that time there have been black holes discovered, but none of them are simply called ‘the black hole’.
Z
zach_dunn
Guest
I honestly don’t mean any offense at all, but, that is what establishes your belief system?
PS - Is my new sig quote properly attributed?
G
geometer
Guest
Well, that is one way in which He has responded. However, you should be able to understand that the kids that I grew up with were terribly agressive.I honestly don’t mean any offense at all, but, that is what establishes your belief system?
PS - Is my new sig quote properly attributed?
They all surrounded me on the playground one day during a noon recess. They were picking up stones and throwing them at me while they shouted.
There is more to this, but while they were acting up I was having a conversation with God. I told him I did not want to exist. I vanished from where I was standing, and was sent, back to the playground about 25 feet from where I was taken up, three hours later. Sunlight shone through my reforming body, as I descended a few feet to the ground.
Reborn,
Try this at home…
T
thistle
Guest
C
COPLAND_3
Guest
This thread has truly gotten off topic right from the start.
P
PeterK
Guest
T
The_Way
Guest
C
COPLAND_3
Guest
Personally I don’t think that it was necessarily translated back into Hebrew from Greek, but I do know that there are various manuscript traditions, which is evident by the Dead Sea Scrolls. There was a push to develop a standardize Hebrew version. I see some evidence that the Pharisees influenced the standardized text to vary from some key Messianic passages that are obvious references to Jesus that are clear in the LXX but not in the Masoretic text. Some of those passages were thought to be altered by Christians until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
As for your question, I can imagine that some manuscript traditions in the Hebrew OT could have been influenced by Aramaic OT manuscripts that were then translated back into Hebrew, that is a Hebrew original that was translated into Aramaic and then back into Hebrew, because Aramaic became so widely used by the Jews during their Babylonian exile.
- Status