Greeting neighbor during Mass/Liturgical abuse?

[Tis_Bearself]

Way to blame the victims, so to speak.

How is anyone “victimized” by a priest taking 1 minute out of the homily for us to ask our neighbors their prayer intentions?

 

[Gorgias]

Stopping the Mass and asking everyone to start talking to the people around them isn’t a change?

No, starting your homily with “ask the person around you what prayer requests they have.” Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

if this happened in my parish on Sunday I’d be looking for another parish on Monday

Umm… ok.

as I heard Msgr. Pope say an EWTN Radio this morning, “Father, this isn’t your Mass.”

@DIERM beat me to it, but: nor is it yours to define what’s a “change in the Mass”.

endure a priest deviating from the rubrics?

From which rubric would you say he deviated in this case?

So a priest deliberately deviates from the rubrics, but we’re the one’s who are wrong if we recognize it as a deviation from the rubrics?

Again: what’s the deviation that you perceive?

 

[stpurl]

Um, perhaps I wasn’t clear. What I was responding to was a poster who said this,

With the awesome responsibility to attend Mass, comes the responsibility to be in the proper disposition to receive the free grace from God. . .when we make it so difficult that we have to sit in the pews with a scorecard to keep track of our perceived liturgical abuses, we become not a participant, but a mere observer.

The obvious implication was (since he was responding to another poster who said this :

My responsibility as a lay Catholic is to attend Mass, the priest’s responsibility as a priest is to follow the rubric.

The implication was that Mike (the poster above) in his responsibility should be ‘not in the pew with a scorecard’. . .as if simply commenting made him a liturgical Nazi.

Which is, in fact, 'blaming the ‘victim’, or if you like the phrase better, “an ad hominem”, an attempt to make the person who notes a problem into the problem himself or herself.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think the issue we’re having in this case is that the priest’s action that people are complaining about seems like it might not be a deviation from the “rubrics” at all and is something very short, done in a spirit of good fellowship. For someone to get so bothered by it that they say they’d find a different parish to attend immediately if it happened at his parish, seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[tafan2]

I think it is a liturgical abuse. I do not like it. I would likely endure it. I would never be able to get comfortable doing it.

Reminds me of when holding hands during the Our Father started, and everyone expected you to hold their hand. I was so uncomfortable. Oh how I wanted it to just go away. Thankfully, although the practice persists, I rarely have someone expect me to participate. To everyone’s benefit BTW, no one has to touch my sweaty palms.

 

[MikeInVA]

I think the issue we’re having in this case is that the priest’s action that people are complaining about seems like it might not be a deviation from the “rubrics” at all and is something very short, done in a spirit of good fellowship. For someone to get so bothered by it that they say they’d find a different parish to attend immediately if it happened at his parish, seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

Since I said it, I will respond. The Mass is not a social hour, and the purpose of the homily is not for everyone to start talking to each other. If the pastor is this relaxed in celebrating the Mass than I would assume he is relaxed in many other areas of his ministry. I’m blessed to have several churches within 20 minutes of my house so I could easily find another church, I’m not sure what I would do if it meant driving to the next state.

 

[stpurl]

I thought that so long as one attended a valid Mass anywhere that one could choose?

I mean, we hear people saying that they prefer to attend Mass in one of several different churches near their home, whether it’s because the priest has ‘better’ homilies, there’s more fellowship, songs which the person likes better, a more prayerful atmosphere, etc.

So why would it bother someone if a person is sufficiently bothered by anything at Mass that they would choose to attend at a different parish, so long as they are attending Mass?

I don’t get this from you, Tis, but I think there are times when there does seem to be a double standard around here; i.e., you can ‘change churches’ but only for a ‘good’ or ‘noble’ or ‘forum-approved reason.’

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m fine with somebody attending a different Catholic Mass if they don’t like what goes on at the parish near them. There’s a difference between a personal preference and an actual liturgical abuse, though, especially when the person claiming liturgical abuse suggests that all Catholics should object to the practice in question or that the Mass is somehow not being done “right” when the practice occurs.

 

[PHXsunsAZ]

At the parish I go to the music director asks everyone to greet each other right before the procession starts at our Sunday evening mass. No surprise this is also the mass with contemporary music. I find it a little annoying.

 

[Dougbro1]

I had a priest who did that at my parish. I have a feeling he was trying to build a sense of community.

 

[KyPerson]

Before the Mass is all right, but during it?
I’m an introvert and I would find this very uncomfortable.

 

[pnewton]

For those who are saying this is an abuse, what in section 65 or 66 forbids this practice as part of the homily?

http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wor...uction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-2.cfm

 

[MikeInVA]

The Homily

1. The Homily is part of the Liturgy and is highly recommended,[62] for it is necessary for the nurturing of the Christian life. It should be an explanation of some aspect of the readings from Sacred Scripture or of another text from the Ordinary or the Proper of the Mass of the day and should take into account both the mystery being celebrated and the particular needs of
   the listeners.[63]
2. The Homily should ordinarily be given by the Priest Celebrant himself or be entrusted by him to a concelebrating Priest, or from time to time and, if appropriate, to the Deacon, but never to a lay person.[64] In particular cases and for a just cause, the Homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate.

On Sundays and Holydays of Obligation there is to be a Homily at every Mass that is celebrated with the people attending, and it may not be omitted without a grave reason. On other days it is recommended, especially on the weekdays of Advent, Lent, and Easter Time, as well as on other festive days and occasions when the people come to church in greater numbers.[65]

It is appropriate for a brief period of silence to be observed after
the Homily.

From your link. Please show me the part where it says, “now ask the parishioners to stand, greet and interact with each other for a few moments.” And I’m sorry, just because something is not specifically proscribed does not mean it is allowed.

 

[DIERM]

And I’m sorry, just because something is not specifically proscribed does not mean it is allowed.

and inversely, because something is not specifically prohibited does not mean it is not allowed…if so, we would be belly aching that the priest coughed during the Eucharistic Prayer, and the Rubrics do not authorize a cough.

 

[acanonlawyer]

lets all pass around a bottle of moonshine and take a swig right after communion

That’s actually in there, enacting the Lord’s words that He would not drink of the fruit of the…wherever that stuff comes from…until He drinks in new, in the kingdom.

Dan

 

[TheLittleLady]

and the particular needs of
the listeners.[63]

Right there. The priest obviously feels that there is a need for his parishioners to pray for one another.

 

[acanonlawyer]

Therefore, I am uncertain as to whether this new addition to the Mass is the priest’s idea or the bishop’s (I will find out more at an upcoming meeting.)

It seems you have to find out more before considering what “recourse” you might have. See where this idea comes from, what its purpose is, how its really supposed to work, what other options have been considered, what the justification is, have the rubrics been kept in mind, etc.

Dan

 

[JohnLilburne]

In the Order of Mass of the Roman Missal it has:

“16. At the end of the Gospel, the Deacon, or the Priest, acclaims:
The Gospel of the Lord.
All reply:
Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ.
Then he kisses the book, saying quietly:
Through the words of the Gospel
may our sins be wiped away.

17 . Then follows the Homily, which is to be preached by a Priest or Deacon on all Sundays and Holydays of Obligation; on other days, it is recommended.”

The Priest can give the homily from the ambo (where the Gospel was read) or standing at the chair or “another worthy place” (General Instruction of the Roman Missal, n. 136).

In the description of Mass with a Deacon in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, n. 175 it has:

“When the Deacon is assisting the Bishop, he carries the book to him to be kissed, or else kisses it himself, saying quietly the formula Per evangelica dicta ( Through the words of the Gospel). In more solemn celebrations, if appropriate, the Bishop may impart a blessing to the people with the Book of the Gospels.
Lastly, the Deacon may carry the Book of the Gospels to the credence table or to another suitable and dignified place.”

To summarise, between the Gospel reading and homily there is always kissing of the book and the quiet prayer. There may be a blessing by a bishop, movement of the Book of the Gospels and/or movement of the Priest from the ambo to the chair (or from chair to ambo).

If the Mass has no homily and no Creed, the next part of the Order of Mass (after the Gospel) is:

“20. Then follows the Universal Prayer, this is, the Prayer of the Faithful or Bidding Prayers.”

The description of this is the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, in the section “Mass Without a Deacon”:

“138. After the recitation of the Symbol or Creed, the Priest, standing at the chair with his hands joined, by means of a brief address calls upon the faithful to participate in the Universal Prayer. Then the cantor, the reader, or another person announces the intentions from the ambo or from some other suitable place while facing the people. The latter take their part by replying in supplication. At the very end, the Priest, with hands extended, concludes the petitions with a prayer.”

[Excerpts from the English translation of The Roman Missal © 2010, International Commission on English in the Liturgy Corporation. All rights reserved.]

 

[PeterT]

Well, I’m a busy person and it’s more important to me that I find a Mass on Sunday and every other day of the week that I can fit into my schedule, than having the Mass operated perfectly to my liking. I’m willing to bet that a lot of Catholics are not that concerned if the priest takes 1 minute of homily time to have people talk to their neighbor or say an extra prayer. It either doesn’t bother them, or even if it does, it’s not worth it to them to drive 15 miles or even 5 miles to a different church. If they get that wound up about it, the odds are they aren’t even at the parish church, they’re already driving a half hour or an hour to go to the TLM.

It’s not about having a Mass to my liking or to the priest’s liking, or to liking to most of the assembly or anybody’s liking. It’s about the Mass — the most sacred liturgy of the Catholic Church — conforming to the General Instructions of the Roman Missal (GIRM). The GIRM has rules of what the homily should contain and who may say it (a priest or deacon). No where in the GIRM does it allow a priest to improvise as the priest did as described by the original poster (OP).

Greetings and prayer requests as described (getting to know you pew neighbor) can easily be done before the start of the Mass and but not during it.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I understand that’s how some people feel, but I cannot control whether a priest, perhaps even with his bishop’s approval, wishes to make a minor deviation from the GIRM. It’s out of my hands, and I don’t feel like I need to or should have to avoid a Mass that’s generally licit and valid because of this choice by a priest.