Greeting People Before Mass or Silent Pious Prayer?

[JourneyForTruth]

I would like to know what the forums members viewpoints are on post Vatican II reform particularly regarding the need for pious silence verses gregarious welcoming of the community before mass. Here is a quote from Father Tony that best explains what I am seeing in some churches.

… Rather, gathering as a community requires individuals to go outside of themselves, to connect to each other. Often before Mass, people greet each other, introduce themselves, engage in light conversation to identify common interests and begin to forge a bond. People who already know each other greet each other and update each other on what has happened since they last gathered. In recent years, many congregations have become comfortable greeting each other and conversing before Mass begins. This is an important and necessary element in our gathering and preparing for communal prayer.

Rev. Anthony J. Schuerger, Pastor
This entry was posted in Fr. Tony’s Blog and tagged liturgy, prayer, recollection.
stmalachi.org/2010/10/recollection-reverence-and-prayer/

I assume you do as each parish Pastor has determined as best for their community either is right.

 

[Tietjen]

I would like to know what the forums members viewpoints are on post Vatican II reform particularly regarding the need for pious silence verses gregarious welcoming of the community before mass.

I save the socializing for after mass either in the narthex, social hall, or parking lot. Never in the nave.

 

[KLJM12]

I would like to know what the forums members viewpoints are on post Vatican II reform particularly regarding the need for pious silence verses gregarious welcoming of the community before mass. Here is a quote from Father Tony that best explains what I am seeing in some churches.

… Rather, gathering as a community requires individuals to go outside of themselves, to connect to each other. Often before Mass, people greet each other, introduce themselves, engage in light conversation to identify common interests and begin to forge a bond. People who already know each other greet each other and update each other on what has happened since they last gathered. In recent years, many congregations have become comfortable greeting each other and conversing before Mass begins. This is an important and necessary element in our gathering and preparing for communal prayer.

Rev. Anthony J. Schuerger, Pastor
This entry was posted in Fr. Tony’s Blog and tagged liturgy, prayer, recollection.
stmalachi.org/2010/10/recollection-reverence-and-prayer/

I assume you do as each parish Pastor has determined as best for their community either is right.

This is something that I see at most Novus Ordo parishes. It is truly heart-breaking.

Obviously greeting new parishoners, visitors, and friends is important. No traditional Catholic would deny that, which is why parishoners gather after the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in a different building.

Fr. Schuerger has slapped the more than 2000 years of Catholic Tradition in the face with his comment. It is “necessary” to chat with buddies before Mass about who won the college football game the night before? Doubtful. This speaks volumes about faith in the True Presence within the Church today. I can guarantee that if someone believed whole-heartedly that Jesus was standing in front of them, then that individual would not care about anything other than giving him the worship and reverence He is due. Period.

When Catholics go to Mass,Father Schuerger, there is nothing LESS important than chit-chatting and nothing MORE important than kneeling before the almightypresence of God and keeping our mouths shut until we leave his presence. What an ignorant statement to make. I am certain that no one could defend that statement logically.

 

[kmuestwin]

I have a hard time when people feel like chatting in the nave before mass. It’s important to be able to get yourself into a prayerful headspace before mass and its hard to pray when people are discussing their week with their neighbors.

There are some things that may need to be said, many times, I’ve been asked by people in the chior to make copies but that is a necessity and it doesn’t require a lot of conversation.

 

[jeannetherese]

… Rather, gathering as a community requires individuals to go outside of themselves, to connect to each other. Often before Mass, people greet each other, introduce themselves, engage in light conversation to identify common interests and begin to forge a bond. People who already know each other greet each other and update each other on what has happened since they last gathered. In recent years, many congregations have become comfortable greeting each other and conversing before Mass begins. This is an important and necessary element in our gathering and preparing for communal prayer.

Rev. Anthony J. Schuerger, Pastor
This entry was posted in Fr. Tony’s Blog and tagged liturgy, prayer, recollection.
stmalachi.org/2010/10/recollection-reverence-and-prayer/
This quote is out of context and, subsequently, does a disservice to the article as a whole which is about the need for silence and recollection.
I would refer readers to the complete article.Here is an additional snippet:
"the most important element which needs to be prepared before we can pray well is ourselves. And while we need to connect with one another as we gather, we need, most of all, to prepare ourselves to be with the Lord.

To be ready to pray, we need not only to gather but also settle ourselves, setting aside whatever thoughts or preoccupations we may have arrived with, and remembering what we are about to do, i.e. worship the Lord. To do this well, most people need a period of time to themselves, an uninterrupted period to be silent, to become still, to focus mind and heart on the Lord. Interestingly, the General Instruction on the Roman Missal suggests, “Even before the celebration itself, it is commendable that silence to be observed in the church, in the sacristy, in the vesting room, and in adjacent areas, so that all may dispose themselves to carry out the sacred action in a devout and fitting manner.” (#45)

 

[JRKH]

I agree with the others.

Community is a wonderful thing and it should certainly be promoted. But respect is also important and it is disrespectful to be chatting in church while others are trying to pray.
Sad to say my parish sounds like a cafeteria after mass (except no dishes clinking…) making it impossible to truly concentrate on any after mass prayers.

Now - in defense of my fellow parishioners, ours is an older and smallish Church (considering the size of the congregation) so we don’t have a "gathering space (as they term it in newer churches) and as people are leaving after mass, things can get pretty backed up.

But that said…there have been occasions where I have been trying to pray after mass - in the third or fourth pew - and had people stand and chat away in normal “street voice” not 6 or 7 feet away, not in any line, but just there, where they happened to run into each other. Another time two children kept running back and forth through the pews around us while there parents were gabbing several pews away…I very nearly lost it on that one…
It was (if I remember) Easter so I chalked it up to being a C&E family with no idea how to properly behave…

Anyway - that is enough grousing on my part. Is the above gossip? hhmmmm

Currently I am unable to attend Sunday mass and the weekday mass I do regularly attend - this is not a problem. When I am once again able to attend Sunday mass regularly, I very likely will attend the EF mass as often as possible…There is little of this problem at that mass.

Peace
James

 

[Immacolata]

This is something that I see at most Novus Ordo parishes. It is truly heart-breaking.

My parish is Novus Ordo, and indeed there are conversations in the nave — but they are always silent as to give those who wish to pray (or read the bulletin, if they so wish) their space. I, myself, say a few words to an old woman that I frequently sit next to, but I make it my priority to be as quiet as possible as the nave is a sacred space. There are, unfortunately, several parishes where people pay no mind to those that wish to pray before Mass, but not all Novus Ordo parishes are that way. Not that you were saying that, but I wished to give my (name removed by moderator)ut on what I knew about Novus Ordo parishes.

As for the OP’s topic, I believe in silence before Mass — if someone wishes to talk with another, whisper. The nave is a sacred space, as I said, and not a place to discuss weekly events loudly as in a cafeteria.

 

[Cider]

People do this outside of the church itself at my parish, not inside. I rarely see people chit chatting or talking with each other inside, before or after mass. Most people are kneeling and praying. My experience is that I see socializing much more often when I’ve gone to the OF at parishes where that is the only form of the mass offered but I’ve rarely seen it inside the church at parish’s I’ve attended where only the EF or where both forms are offered.

 

[JourneyForTruth]

I did not mean to single out Rev. Anthony J. Schuerger with the Novus Ordo Missae
Also Known As: the New Mass, the Mass of Paul VI, the post-Vatican II Mass

More source material for Horizontal Prayer
It’s a natural instinct, and a good thing, for parishioners to want to welcome one another and catch up on one another’s lives — and it is often a sign of a parish’s vitality that people genuinely enjoy socializing before and after the Sunday Eucharist.
The countervailing argument, of course, is that prayer is not just vertical but horizontal — i.e., it puts us in closer touch not only with the Lord but with the community of disciples who share our faith in Jesus…
So the question becomes how to combine that value of community with the reverence due to Christ present in the tabernacle and the respect owed to people who are still praying after Mass is over…
Also, in order to foster the special attention the Eucharist merits, I know of some parishes which, shortly before Mass starts, make an announcement that the next few minutes will be spent in silent preparation for the sacred celebration.
Questions may be sent to Father Kenneth Doyle at askfatherdoyle@gmail.com and 40 Hopewell St., Albany, N.Y. 12208.
catholicherald.com/stories/Loud-talking-in-church,18060​

Gather Faithfully Together: A Guide for Sunday Mass, Pastoral Letter on the Liturgy
Cardinal Roger M. Mahony
Archbishop of Los Angeles
Solemnity of Our Lady of the Angels
September 4, 1997

At 9:45 the choir is assembled and a brief but serious rehearsal begins, firming up what was practiced last Wednesday evening. This warm-up of voices lasts until just a few minutes before the liturgy is to begin; toward the end many in the now two-thirds full church join in singing…

Although people go out of their way to greet one another and be gracious, it is never done in such a way that you feel one person is the host and another is the guest. Everyone is at home.

At one minute before 10 o’clock, the cantor greets the assembly and asks them to give some brief attention to the hymn that will be used as a recessional today. As they conclude this little rehearsal, the cantor announces the hymnal number of the procession song, then stands quietly for a moment before gesturing for everyone to rise as the instrumentalists begin to lead everyone into singing a hymn of praise that seems to build verse by verse.

Cardinal Roger Mahony Archbishop of Los Angeles
la-archdiocese.org/cardinal/Documents/1997-0904_Pastoral_Letter_GatherFaithfully.pdf​

The Gathering Rite

The members of St. Thomas Aquinas begin Mass by saying “Hello” to those in the worship space to begin to get acquainted with each other and to acknowledge the presence of Christ in each other.
St. Thomas Aquinas Center- The Catholic Center at Purdue
boilercatholics.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=84Aguide-through-the-catholic-mass&catid=16&Itemid=12​

Talking in Church
Assuming that what is being said is not itself sinful, it is morally neutral to talk. However, Catholic moral teaching tells us that “circumstances” change the moral character of actions.
Talking in Church when not demanded by necessity is at least venially sinful for the following reasons:
Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL
ewtn.com/expert/answers/talking_in_church.htm​

Let us acknowledge this point first: whatever has been said or you may have heard in the past, there is no rule about "talking in church” at St. Paul.
Secondly: we encourage you to be respectful of your fellow parishioners and the sacred space in which we worship together our heavenly Father.
Thirdly: we encourage you to use the narthex as well as the plaza in front of the church for as much visiting, socializing, and talking as you would like.
We hope this clarification helps us to grow as a parish in the love of Christ.
stpaulcatholic.net/church/index.php/faqs/why-do-we-not-talk-in-church-before-and-after-mass/​

Answer: First, of all, no, there is no written rule against talking loud in the Church. But there are unwritten rules against unnecessary talk that surpasses a low whisper, such talks often consisting of socializing and, or gossip. By this, it is meant that:

catholicdoors.com/faq/qu56.htm​

 

[Cat]

Why does the greeting have to be “gregarious?”

Why not a small nod and gentle smile, or maybe a non-demonstrative wave of the hand to greet people before Mass in the nave? Warm, welcoming, friendly, and at the same time, reverent and silent. Any problem with that approach?

No talking or words necessary, or perhaps just a whispered “Good morning” or “Good evening.”

For really close friends, especially those who are passing through a time of trial in their lives, a warm handshake or even a quick hug is appropriate, IMO. Again, nothing demonstrative or prolong, just a recognition of fellow Christians.

I agree that silence is good, but the silence doesn’t have to be cold, hostile, stern, or condemning. Mass is the time when believers gather together, and I think it’s appropriate to recognize our fellow believers, not ignore them or pretend that it’s just “me and Jesus.”

I’m guessing that there was plenty of “togetherness” at Calvary, as Mary, John, and the other women waited and watched the Lord die. I doubt there was any light chitchat, but I’m guessing that they clung to each other and took small comfort and drew courage from being together.

.

 

[JRKH]

Why does the greeting have to be “gregarious?”

Why not a small nod and gentle smile, or maybe a non-demonstrative wave of the hand to greet people before Mass in the nave? Warm, welcoming, friendly, and at the same time, reverent and silent. Any problem with that approach?

No talking or words necessary, or perhaps just a whispered “Good morning” or “Good evening.”

For really close friends, especially those who are passing through a time of trial in their lives, a warm handshake or even a quick hug is appropriate, IMO. Again, nothing demonstrative or prolong, just a recognition of fellow Christians.

I agree that silence is good, but the silence doesn’t have to be cold, hostile, stern, or condemning. Mass is the time when believers gather together, and I think it’s appropriate to recognize our fellow believers, not ignore them or pretend that it’s just “me and Jesus.”

I’m guessing that there was plenty of “togetherness” at Calvary, as Mary, John, and the other women waited and watched the Lord die. I doubt there was any light chitchat, but I’m guessing that they clung to each other and took small comfort and drew courage from being together.

.

Peace
James

 

[Glacies]

St. Alphonsus de Liguori and St. John of Avila have recommended priests to recollect for half an hour before Holy Mass and this is a point from which the laity can draw wisdom as well. The Council of Trent says (Session 22) about the Holy Mass that “no other work can be performed by the faithful so holy and divine” so we should prepare to attend it accordingly. Many confession guides ask if one was inattentive at Mass wherefore it is worthwhile to do it well all the way from beginning, and this happens by banishing worldly cares through mental prayer and silence. Attention goes with devotion: According to St. Augustine attending Mass with all possible devotion protects us from sudden demise, while St. Gertrude and St. Mechtilde report that by hearing the Mass devoutly we shall have saints to aid us at our death. Cf. The Power of the Mass

 

[Immacolata]

Why does the greeting have to be “gregarious?”

Why not a small nod and gentle smile, or maybe a non-demonstrative wave of the hand to greet people before Mass in the nave? Warm, welcoming, friendly, and at the same time, reverent and silent. Any problem with that approach?

No talking or words necessary, or perhaps just a whispered “Good morning” or “Good evening.”

For really close friends, especially those who are passing through a time of trial in their lives, a warm handshake or even a quick hug is appropriate, IMO. Again, nothing demonstrative or prolong, just a recognition of fellow Christians.

I agree that silence is good, but the silence doesn’t have to be cold, hostile, stern, or condemning. Mass is the time when believers gather together, and I think it’s appropriate to recognize our fellow believers, not ignore them or pretend that it’s just “me and Jesus.”

I’m guessing that there was plenty of “togetherness” at Calvary, as Mary, John, and the other women waited and watched the Lord die. I doubt there was any light chitchat, but I’m guessing that they clung to each other and took small comfort and drew courage from being together.

Agreed. There is no need to be loud but obnoxious, and as well, there is no need to be standoffish but silent. A simple nod, a few whispered words, or a handshake will do, and you can say more than perhaps a loud conversation can.

 

[Tietjen]

Why does the greeting have to be “gregarious?”

Why not a small nod and gentle smile, or maybe a non-demonstrative wave of the hand to greet people before Mass in the nave? Warm, welcoming, friendly, and at the same time, reverent and silent. Any problem with that approach?

I never notice my friends entering the nave while I’m praying and reflecting on God before mass. Therefore, I can’t say that I have found a need to wave. Besides, there are many people who wouldn’t be able to simply leave it at a silent wave. They may very well be tempted to come over to their friend sitting directly in front of me and begin a conversation. Why tempt people? IMO, its best to simply accept that there is a time and place for everything and just as it is not the time and place for Eucharistic Adoration in the dining hall during the Friday night fish fry, it is likewise not the time and place to catch-up on social affairs that can easily be put off until after mass outside of the nave. Just my opinion I suppose.

No talking or words necessary, or perhaps just a whispered “Good morning” or “Good evening.”

This is an example of why it’s not a good idea. When you began to type the above sentence, your intent was simply a silent wave or nod, as you began by saying, “No talking or words necessary…” However, before you could complete the typed sentence you changed your answer to include “talking” and “words.” If this type of situation is too easy to be overcome by simply typing out a description of the situation, how is it that it will be any easier to avoid socializing when a friend comes up while you’re praying and says, “Hi Cat! How are you?”

I agree that silence is good, but the silence doesn’t have to be cold, hostile, stern, or condemning. Mass is the time when believers gather together, and I think it’s appropriate to recognize our fellow believers, not ignore them or pretend that it’s just “me and Jesus.”

A couple of thoughts… I am not suggesting that silence has to be “cold, hostile, stern, or condemning.” Who of my friends would take offense if they found me in prayer? My friends know me better than that and wouldn’t think that I was snubbing them. Also, while I am praying, it IS just me and Jesus. I’m not pretending anything.

I don’t want to argue this so I’ll leave it alone now. I simply wanted to explain that it should not be considered rude to be in prayer before mass and perhaps those Catholics who do not feel the need or desire to pray and reflect, be respectful of those around them that do. Peace.

 

[Cat]

I never notice my friends entering the nave while I’m praying and reflecting on God before mass. Therefore, I can’t say that I have found a need to wave. Besides, there are many people who wouldn’t be able to simply leave it at a silent wave. They may very well be tempted to come over to their friend sitting directly in front of me and begin a conversation. Why tempt people? IMO, its best to simply accept that there is a time and place for everything and just as it is not the time and place for Eucharistic Adoration in the dining hall during the Friday night fish fry, it is likewise not the time and place to catch-up on social affairs that can easily be put off until after mass outside of the nave. Just my opinion I suppose.

This is an example of why it’s not a good idea. When you began to type the above sentence, your intent was simply a silent wave or nod, as you began by saying, “No talking or words necessary…” However, before you could complete the typed sentence you changed your answer to include “talking” and “words.” If this type of situation is too easy to be overcome by simply typing out a description of the situation, how is it that it will be any easier to avoid socializing when a friend comes up while you’re praying and says, “Hi Cat! How are you?”

A couple of thoughts… I am not suggesting that silence has to be “cold, hostile, stern, or condemning.” Who of my friends would take offense if they found me in prayer? My friends know me better than that and wouldn’t think that I was snubbing them. Also, while I am praying, it IS just me and Jesus. I’m not pretending anything.

I don’t want to argue this so I’ll leave it alone now. I simply wanted to explain that it should not be considered rude to be in prayer before mass and perhaps those Catholics who do not feel the need or desire to pray and reflect, be respectful of those around them that do. Peace.

I agree that it’s impolite to interrupt someone who is in prayer. I agree that we need to respect those who are obviously in prayer.

But the OP did NOT specify “in prayer” before Mass.

This is the OP’s query: I would like to know what the forums members viewpoints are on post Vatican II reform particularly regarding the need for pious silence verses gregarious welcoming of the community before mass.

That’s the query I responded to.

Just a thought: if you are praying “Catholic-style,” with your eyes wide open and head up, and hands not obviously folded, it’s possible that others don’t realize you are praying. Those of us from Protestant backgrounds are not used to seeing people pray in that position. Please give people the benefit of the doubt, and forgive a natural mistake by others. Yes, I agree, they should probably just assume that someone who is kneeling is praying. But again, lots of people who aren’t praying kneel out of habit, so it can be a little confusing.

Tietjen, there’s a huge difference between a conversation or “catching up on social affairs,” and a whispered “Good morning” or “Cat, how are you?” Either one of those polite, friendly, and brief greetings can be answered with a smile and a nod, and perhaps a whispered or lip-synched, “Let’s talk later,” followed by silence.

And Tietjen, it would be kind to be reasonable and understanding–there are gregarious (not a bad word) people who love to make contact with other human beings and are truly interested in “how they are,” and who are merely a little forgetful that they are in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

Those who recognize the need for silence can curb enthusiast parishioners without hurting their feelings or being harsh by a response/gesture like I described–a nod and a smile and a very quiet, “Let’s talk later.”

OR…another possible response, if there is time before Mass, is a friendly silent gesture that indicates, “Follow me, let’s talk outside.” Then lead the friendly person out of the nave into the narthex or lobby for a chat. This is an especially good response if there is something significant to talk about–e.g, a serious illness of a family member. Of course, often there isn’t time for something like this, but if there is, it’s a reasonable, sweet-tempered response. One thing you can say when you get outside into the lobby is, “I really don’t like to chit-chat in the Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, so that’s why I brought us out here.” This would remind the chatter that perhaps it’s not a good thing to be networking before Mass.

 

[JourneyForTruth]

they should probably just assume that someone who is kneeling is praying. But again, lots of people who aren’t praying kneel out of habit, so it can be a little confusing.

Post Vatican II our church as well as others do not have kneelers installed. When you come in you sit looking like your ready for entertainment or the program to begin. This is why many people talk because the feeling is like your at a school assembly or stage show. New Parishioners who just joined the church don’t remember the kneelers or that people may be sitting and praying perhaps even if they were holding a rosery.

 

[JourneyForTruth]

Maybe the church is changing with the times or due to the times in that, trying to run a ministry or even getting people to join the choir means talking to them when you see them. (some parishes are losing people)

I remember when being part of a church community meant getting car loans from the church credit union, having your child play sports with the school, spend money at church functions (dances, bingo, carnival) because it’s “for the church”. So church community was part of your life, now the only time you see people is at church when they sit down next to you at mass to ask for their help.

Remember the above church that has a moment of silence before mass begins to ready yourself for the celebration.

 

[tommydude2112]

I believe in silent prayer beforehand because once you enter under the roof of god’s house, you need to be serious and pay respect by concentrating at all times on prayer, song or the Eucharist. conversing is for outside once the mass has ended.

 

[Baelor]

I believe in silent prayer beforehand because once you enter under the roof of god’s house, you need to be serious and pay respect by concentrating at all times on prayer, song or the Eucharist. conversing is for outside once the mass has ended.

I think full-blown conversations have no place in church, as the actual church has a purpose: liturgical functions. That being said, greeting someone does not seem to be a problem. Surely acknowledging others who share are faith and joy in the Mass is permissible.

 

[Christine85]

I don’t think that people should talk in the Church before or after Mass. A smile or wave at someone is fine, but I don’t think talking in Church is appropriate. I have at times talked in Church but I try my best to avoid it now. I feel if people talk in Church it is disrespect for the real presence.