Gregorian Chant: a Thing of the Future?

[BarbaraTherese]

WanderAimlessly:

Interesting interview on Gregorian ChantPF

[chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=43246&eng=y](http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=43246&eng=y)
Bringing Back Gregorian Chant - Chiesa - (Jan. 2nd 2006)

Gregorian Chant Is Returning from Exile. Maybe
Valentino Miserachs Grau, president of the Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music, is calling for its revival. Pope Joseph Ratzinger wants it, too. But the path is full of obstacles

by Sandro Magister

…a rather long article, but makes interesting reading. Below is simply a small portion of the overall article:

ROMA, December 7, 2005 – …"…But now there is a pope, Benedict XVI, who is highly competent in the area of sacred music, is severely critical of the degradation of music following the council, and has written on a number of occasions what he thinks and what he wants: to restore to the Catholic liturgy the great music that “from Gregorian chant passes through the music of the cathedrals and polyphony, the music of the Renaissance and the Baroque, to Bruckner and beyond…”

 

[arieh0310]

For those inclined to Gregorian Chant, here is a link to some mp3 files that you can download for free.

 

[joe_gloor_1]

It must be a matter of taste, but chant makes me sleepy.
And I hold that incense is more carcinogenic than 2nd hand smoke.
That being said, as the former director of a Life Teen band, I would just like to add a little defense of the music.
oat soda:

like the life teen music which is a total profanation of the mass and should be reformed imediately.

CONSTITUTION ON THE SACRED LITURGY SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON DECEMBER 4, 1963
120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.
But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

1. Composers, filled with the Christian spirit, should feel that their vocation is to cultivate sacred music and increase its store of treasures.
   Let them produce compositions which have the qualities proper to genuine sacred music, not confining themselves to works which can be sung only by large choirs, but providing also for the needs of small choirs and for the active participation of the entire assembly of the faithful.
   The texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine; indeed they should be drawn chiefly from holy scripture and from liturgical sources.

Emphasis mine.

I disagree that Life Teen music is profane, but rather a response to Vatican II specifically designed for the youth culture of today. I know that we never sang any song that wasn’t completely orthodox and ask that you site a specific example for discussion.
Thanks - Joe Gloor

 

[brotherhrolf]

I was reflecting on this thread today and remembered my high school graduation Mass in May of 1969. The opening hymn was “Sons of God”, Offertory “Bridge over Troubled Waters”; Communion “Sounds of Silence”; Recessional “They’ll Know We are Christians by Our Love”. Two short years after the implementation of Vatican II and the NO Mass, my Catholic high school went from Chant and traditional hymnology (e.g. Holy God We Praise Thy Name) to the use of Simon and Garfunkle specifically designed to address the youth culture of my time. I didn’t like it then and I don’t like it now and many of my classmates were aghast that we would be singing pop music instead of sacred music at our graduation. Many of our parents and relatives were scandalized. And this was just the tip of the iceberg that was to come.

Our diocesan TV channel and our diocesan newspaper routinely show films and pictures of life teen Masses. Whereas we sang the Simon and Garfunkle, we were appropriately reserved. I simply do not think that all that hand and hip swaying is appropriate for the sanctity of the Mass. The lyrics may not be unorthodox but the method of delivery is not. My high school choir used only guitars but I daresay they were not up there on the stage with the Governor of Louisiana and the Archbishop of New Orleans carrying on like Jimmi Hendrix singing “Foxy Lady”.

Two versions of youth culture. Must we really sink to the level of a rock concert in order to appeal to today’s youth culture. Should we not be evangelizing our children toward the reverence that the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord should be offered?

 

[arieh0310]

brotherhrolf:

Two versions of youth culture. Must we really sink to the level of a rock concert in order to appeal to today’s youth culture. Should we not be evangelizing our children toward the reverence that the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord should be offered?

Amen!! Religious entertainment will never compete with secular entertainment to begin with, so why degrade the reverence that mass necessitates?

 

[BarbaraTherese]

joe_gloor:

It must be a matter of taste, but chant makes me sleepy.
And I hold that incense is more carcinogenic than 2nd hand smoke.
That being said, as the former director of a Life Teen band, I would just like to add a little defense of the music.

See original Post for edited section.

I disagree that Life Teen music is profane, but rather a response to Vatican II specifically designed for the youth culture of today. I know that we never sang any song that wasn’t completely orthodox and ask that you site a specific example for discussion.
Thanks - Joe Gloor

While I love Gregorian Chant…I was raised on it…I have been to quite a few Masses with teen type music and bands and thoroughly enjoyed the experience and found it inspiriational and uplifting. I am a fan of St. Paul’s who was rather of the opinion I think that there is room for everyone on this here ship. I hope so!

“All inspiration comes from God”…and as Teillhard de Chardin wrote: “Nothing God has created is profane”… concept of profane is due to our own perspectives and attitudes. Profanity or nay is in us.

Barb

 

[Joe_Gloor]

brotherhrolf:

I simply do not think that all that hand and hip swaying is appropriate for the sanctity of the Mass.

I do. It is an outward expression of participation in the song.

CCC 1158 The harmony of signs (song, music, words, and actions) is all the more expressive and fruitful when expressed in the cultural richness of the People of God who celebrate. Hence “religious singing by the faithful is to be intelligently fostered so that in devotions and sacred exercises as well as in liturgical services,” in conformity with the Church’s norms, “the voices of the faithful may be heard.” But “the texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine. Indeed they should be drawn chiefly from the Sacred Scripture and from liturgical sources.”

brotherhrolf:

Should we not be evangelizing our children toward the reverence that the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord should be offered?

I agree with this. But I ask, if we are to move toward that reverence we must keep in mind where we are starting from.

 

[slewi]

oat soda:

finally, indications that there is need to establish gregorian chant as the primary music of the latin right. i’m sick and tired of debating with people with the old 60’s diatribe that latin and gregorian chant are pastorially ineffective and aren’t with the spirit of VII. or that we need to meet people where they are instead of rasing them up.

how much more must we listen to the banal and profane? like the life teen music which is a total profanation of the mass and should be reformed imediately.** this is good news and the radicals like trautman of the usccb and his ilk are on the way out**.

Just wondering, what do you base that on?

S

 

[oat_soda]

Just wondering, what do you base that on?

Bishop Trautman: "When we encounter those who advocate a ‘reform of the reform’, we must say, ‘Do not quench the Spirit’. The Holy Spirit was present at Vatican II and gave us new liturgical direction. When we encounter people who harken back to rigidity in rubrics, we must say. ‘Do not quench the Spirit’. When inculturation is denied and one liturgical form is forced on all, we must say, ‘Do not quench the Spirit’… etc.

this interpretation of VII is exactly what B16 addressed in a recent address to the curia on the anniversary of VII’s conclusion 40 years ago:

The problems of reception have arisen from a struggle between two conflicting forms of interpretation. One of these has caused confusion; the other, in a silent but increasingly visible way, has brought results, and continues to bring them.

On one hand, there is an interpretation that I would like to call “hermeneutics of discontinuity and rupture”.

On the other hand, there is the “hermeneutics of reform”, of the renewal of the continuity of the single Church-subject, which the Lord has given us. It is a subject that grows in time and develops, remaining however always the same, the one subject of the People of God on their way.

clearly, those liturgist who are against the use latin and gregorian chant in the liturgy which according to SC are to be retained, are of the hermeneutics of discontinuity and rupture. folk music, rock and roll, and other poor profane music to the exclusion of gregorian chant and sacred polyphony are not faithfully implementing VII. while SC did allow vernacular and a degree of incluturization, it wasn’t intended to abandon those things best fitted and traditional to the roman rite: gregorian chant, and latin.

 

[slewi]

oat soda:

this interpretation of VII is exactly what B16 addressed in a recent address to the curia on the anniversary of VII’s conclusion 40 years ago: clearly, those liturgist who are against the use latin and gregorian chant in the liturgy which according to SC are to be retained, are of the hermeneutics of discontinuity and rupture. folk music, rock and roll, and other poor profane music to the exclusion of gregorian chant and sacred polyphony are not faithfully implementing VII. while SC did allow vernacular and a degree of incluturization, it wasn’t intended to abandon those things best fitted and traditional to the roman rite: gregorian chant, and latin.

You’ve just confused me more.

I wanted to know what information are you basing your assertion that: radicals like trautman of the usccb and his ilk are on the way out.

Also, what is the SC?

Stephen

 

[Joe_Gloor]

oat soda:

…clearly, those liturgist who are against the use latin and gregorian chant in the liturgy which according to SC are to be retained, are of the hermeneutics of discontinuity and rupture. folk music, rock and roll, and other poor profane music to the exclusion of gregorian chant and sacred polyphony are not faithfully implementing VII…

I don’t believe you can say that liturgists who are for using modern music in the liturgy are also against the use of Latin or Gregorian chant. Each has it’s place - not necessarily in the same Celebration of the Mass (hopefully) but each Mass having a different choir, you can have one Mass with Latin and Chant and another with modern music. You are the one insisting that Mass be one way only, not the liturgists.
And I don’t think you can definitively say that the Pope meant that ‘folk music, rock and roll’ are the hermeneutics of discontinuity and rupture.

 

[oat_soda]

**

radicals like trautman of the usccb and his ilk are on the way out.

**if you listen to what B16 has been saying lately, in terms of the liturgy, you will see that he plans on bringing the liturgy back on track by seting the example at the vatican. SC is the VII document concerning the liturgy called sacrosanctum concilium. trautman is the head of the usccb committee on the liturgy which impliments the liturgical norms for the u.s. with approval from rome.

trautman represtents the hermeneutics of discontinuity in terms of interpreting VII. hermeneutics means interpretation in context to the times and culture of what is being interpreted -i think. anyways, trautmen has also publically criticized *liturgicam authenticam *on the faithful translation of texts for use in the liturgy. he is a big proponent of inclusive language and is against our rich roman rite liturgical traditions in general such as gregorian chant, latin, …etc.

so, this hermenutics of discontinuity is on the way out because the B16 is actively implementing the true reforms of VII. also, they say Abp. Piero Marini will be called to replace Abp. Comastri in his current position, freeing the office of pontifical liturgies. Marini is very progresive and is the one who was the MC of JPII’s masses.

here is a recent address to the choir of the sistine chapel:

The liturgy

of the Pope, the liturgy of St. Peter, must be an exemplary liturgy for the world. You know that today, through television and radio, many people all over the world follow this liturgy; from here they learn … what the liturgy is and how it must be celebrated. That is why it is so important, not only that our masters of ceremonies show the Pope how to celebrate the liturgy well, but also that the Sistine Chapel should be an example of the beauty of song in praise of God."
i don’t think you’ll see rock and roll, guitars, pianos, and drums being used at papal masses. not to say they are inherently evil, but they are not especially suited for the roman rite as organ and gregorian chant/sacred polyphony.

save rock and roll for the arenas and protestant mega-churches, or outside of mass in a parish hall.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I read the above responses just before I left work for home and thought about them during the long commute.

CCC 1158 The harmony of signs (song, music, words, and actions) is all the more expressive and fruitful when expressed in the cultural richness of the People of God who celebrate.

As an anthropology major, I have to wonder if “cultural richness of the People of God” relates to authentic cultural traditions of established ethnic groups. Thus the harmony of signs for a Vietnamese choir would include hand gestures - I have seen this at the ordination of a Vietnamese priest when I sang in our cathedral choir. It was very reverent and so obviously part of their traditions. I have attended two Hispanic Masses (one in New Orleans and the other in San Antonio). The bands and choirs were in native costumes. Although the music was uplifting and lively, the sense of reverence and devotion to the Eucharist was almost palpable. I was pleasantly astounded by JPIIs visit to Mexico City in which the procession contained servers costumed as Aztecs playing conch shells and other authentic instruments and singing in Nahuatl as their ancestors did when they processed the image of Nuestra Senora de Guadelupe into the cathedral in Mexico City. Likewise it is perfectly acceptable for African American Catholic Gospel choirs (of which there are many in my area) to sway and clap because this is part of their cultural richness.

As a person of western European descent “cultural richness” for me IS Gregorian Chant and sacred polyphony. It is the smell of incense arising as prayer before God. It is the sound of the chain of the censer striking the censer thrice as the altar is incensed. It is knowing that these things were part and parcel of our worship going back centuries.

I don’t believe we will ever see the Church in America return to this. Why? Chant puts me to sleep. Incense is carcinogenic. Chant is like chewing tinfoil or nails on a blackboard. Joe, I think you hit the nail square on the head. Hand raising and hip swaying are “outward expressions of participation in a** song**”. Our children are growing up expecting to be able to raise hands and sway. I am surprised that some of them “don’t flick their bics”. Is this cultural richness or the “secular culture du jour”? We are forming the congregations of tomorrow. If the Holy Mass takes on the form of a rock concert now, will we be obliged to pander to the next fad in secular society? Unfortunately, unless something is done by the Holy See to stop these trends, I shudder to think what the future will bring and know that unless God intervenes it won’t be chant. But de Chardin also said “Something is afoot in the universe” so maybe I will have hope the size of a mustard grain.

 

[slewi]

Thank you Oat soda, got it! Hopefully we’ll see it happen soon!

S

 

[arieh0310]

brotherhrolf:

As an anthropology major, I have to wonder if “cultural richness of the People of God” relates to authentic cultural traditions of established ethnic groups…As a person of western European descent “cultural richness” for me IS Gregorian Chant and sacred polyphony. It is the smell of incense arising as prayer before God. It is the sound of the chain of the censer striking the censer thrice as the altar is incensed. It is knowing that these things were part and parcel of our worship going back centuries.

I was thinking the same thing. The “cultural richness” of the USA is Protestant, secular, and increasingly pluralistic; why should we imitate this?

 

[brotherhrolf]

I suspect that “cultural richness” can also be defined by what part of the US you are from. Here in overwhelmingly Catholic south Louisiana “cultural richness” includes French, Acadian, Spanish (i.e. Castillian, Isleno), German, Irish, African American, and most recently Vietnamese cultures. With the exception of the African American and Vietnamese cultures, the remainder of us should follow traditional western European patterns. While we have had Mass celebrated in French or Spanish (as in our cathedral’s 200th anniversary in 1992), we have not had Masses with Cajuns two-stepping in the pews, Irish step dancing in the pews, Spaniards doing flamencoes or jotas in the pews, nor German men in lederhosen slap-dancing in the pews. All of which would be acceptable as “cultural richness” acceptable under VII if we adopt the “life teen” model of everything is relative.

I was about to say I’m sorry but I would be telling a falsehood. We threw the baby out with the bathwater here in America after VII. I cannot tell you just how deeply I resented having to sing Simon and Garfunkle at my graduation Mass along with those OH So Wonderful post VII songs (Yes songs) Sons of God and They’ll Know We are Christians. And for how many years thereafter did we have to sing them? And what were they replaced with? Glory and Praise? 1500 years…1500 years of Chant and sacred polyphony down the drain to be replaced by rock music in a rock music setting. ( Ummmmm, I guess y’all know where I stand).

 

[cardenio]

I’m 17… all my friends think I’m weird for liking Gregorian chant. But when I turn off the lights and listen, I can almost smell incense and chrism.

I think of the basicilica at Notre Dame (indiana). Oh, it is so beautiful there!

 

[brotherhrolf]

Thank you Cardenio! You give me hope for the future.

 

[1962Missal]

I think that if you asked the members of an average congregation, you’d find that they aren’t averse to gregorian chant so much as intimidated by it. It sounds so rarefied and otherworldly that it must be very difficult to sing. I think they’d be really suprised to learn that there are lots of pieces, like the ones in the Graduale Simplex, that are quite a bit easier to sing than the folk hymns that they’ve been indoctrinated to think are “friendly”. There’s even a half-decent English translation of the Graduale Simplex to make the transition more pain free.

…And yes, I think English Translations should be for transition purposes only…

Justin

 

[cardenio]

brotherhrolf - you’re welcome.

But remember it’s perfectly acceptable not to enjoy gregorian chant… as much as everybody loves it, some people don’t. As I said, all my friends think I’m weird - which is perfectly acceptable. Love of Gregorian chant is optional; love of God is mandatory.

Ohh, that sounded cool. Maybe I’ll stick that in my signature.

But yeah… my dad (who remembers pre-vatican II days) says he prefers the novus ordo mass, but he doesn’t like how people in general are more irreverent. He mentioned a priest who, during his novus ordo masses, during the consecration, he was so overcome with emotion that he could barely get the words out.

That, I think, is what we need, more than we need Gregorian chant. (Although Gregorian chant is beautiful.)

My dad, also, thinks I’m weird. I’ve been begging to go to a nearby-ish church where they have Latin masses. He says we’ll get there at some point. “Some point” I take to mean a permanent “next week.”

1962Missal - love your screenname, by the way.