Gregorian Chant: a Thing of the Future?

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1962Missal:
I think that if you asked the members of an average congregation, you’d find that they aren’t averse to gregorian chant so much as intimidated by it. It sounds so rarefied and otherworldly that it must be very difficult to sing. I think they’d be really suprised to learn that there are lots of pieces, like the ones in the Graduale Simplex, that are quite a bit easier to sing than the folk hymns that they’ve been indoctrinated to think are “friendly”. There’s even a half-decent English translation of the Graduale Simplex to make the transition more pain free.

…And yes, I think English Translations should be for transition purposes only… 😉

Justin
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Well Justin. St. Joseph Cathedral in Baton Rouge sings chant in both Latin and English. This thread has focused on chant but I think the real issue is one of reverence. Although I have to admit in all honesty that one of my favorite points in the liturgical year is on Holy Thursday when we sing the Pange Lingua in both Latin and English as the procession to reserve the Holy Eucharist in the tabernacle is accomplished. And, during Lent, the congregation chants the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin. My kids at least learned that much.

P.S. I’m on hiatus but I sang in the cathedral choir for 18 yrs.
 
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brotherhrolf:
Well Justin. St. Joseph Cathedral in Baton Rouge sings chant in both Latin and English. This thread has focused on chant but I think the real issue is one of reverence. Although I have to admit in all honesty that one of my favorite points in the liturgical year is on Holy Thursday when we sing the Pange Lingua in both Latin and English as the procession to reserve the Holy Eucharist in the tabernacle is accomplished. And, during Lent, the congregation chants the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin. My kids at least learned that much.

P.S. I’m on hiatus but I sang in the cathedral choir for 18 yrs.
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Why don’t you give your talents to St. Agnes’s? Or do they still only have Low Mass? Maybe you could be part of the effort toward an occasional High Mass? Just a little move of a few blocks… Chanted Propers, Polyphonic Ordinary… hint, hint, push, push…

Here in Lake Charles, we don’t even have the Indult (but three Priests willing and able to celebrate the Traditional Mass), and the departing Bishop was a fan of Marty Haugen. We drive to Annuciation in Houston as resources allow.

Justin
 
What did Christians sing before Gregorian Chant? Does anybody know? I’m a post VII convert, and I have only heard Gregorian Chant once (at Mt Angel Abbey). While it is beautiful and it wouldn’t bother me a bit if it became the norm, why is it prefered over music which predates it?

By that logic, why couldn’t someone argue that some form of modern liturgical music is better than Gregorian Chant (please don’t tell me because the catechism says so…I’m asking from a logical pov, not a dogmatic pov.) btw…I personally don’t think anyone could make that argument based on what I’ve heard, but for arguments sake…
 
Gregorian Chant was probably based on Jewish liturgical chant from ancient days.
 
Dr. Bombay:
Gregorian Chant was probably based on Jewish liturgical chant from ancient days.
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There are similarities for sure. I just recently watched Schindler’s List a few weeks ago and it begins with a Jewish person doing a liturgical chant, pretty similar to our chant.
 
As an anthropology major, I have to wonder if “cultural richness of the People of God” relates to authentic cultural traditions of established ethnic groups.
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Amen! That is the same idea I got from reading Pope Benedict XVI’s book “Truth and Tolerance”. Not that he specifically spoke on sacred music but the idea of culture in general.

When Holy Mother Church comes into contact with other cultures, naturally She does not want to totally destroy everything that they’ve ever done. Pagan or foreign cultures aren’t totally evil. Look what the Church has done throughout the ages, She builds churches on the sites of pagan temples, replaces false idols with statues of the Lord and Our Lady, and allows cultural expression. Look at Catholic churches (especially the older ones) around the world, you can see the influence of the native culture on their architecture. Likewise with music or holidays dear to the people of that particular area (like the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe for people of Mexico and other Spanish speaking countries).

However, profane fads are NOT worthy of inclusion in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. This is not to say that such things are bad or sinful, just not worthy of inclusion at Mass. You don’t need to jam out to hard rock at Mass, save that for your own free time.

Likewise, while drums and dancing may have a role in Mass in Africa it does NOT have a role in the suburbs of the U.S. I am younger (22) and I just abhore secularizations of Mass. I am young, but I don’t need to be lured to Mass with lights and sounds. To me, there is no one more lame than those that would have the Church try to pander to the “younger generation” and likewise nothing lamer than a Catholic Mass that tries hard to discard the beautiful musical tradition of Catholicism for some bastardization of protestant “worship music”.

Granted, times do change and new hymns certainly can be written. There is nothing wrong with that. However, we should not throw away the beautiful traditions of the past for a fleeting attempt to look “cool”-that will NEVER work.

I think it would profit some folks to read Pope Pius XII’s encyclical Mediator Dei.

The organ, Gregorian Chant, polyphony, incense, etc. all have a place of primacy in Liturgy of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. This should be obvious.

What would it be like if some folks tried to “Latinize” our Eastern brothers? It is my understanding (correct me if I’m wrong) that many Eastern Catholics (and the Eastern Orthodox Churches) sing chant unacompanied. Would it be edifying to dump the organ on them? I couldn’t even imagine a guitar or a tambourine at the celebration of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. :eek:
 
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rlg94086:
What did Christians sing before Gregorian Chant? Does anybody know? I’m a post VII convert, and I have only heard Gregorian Chant once (at Mt Angel Abbey). While it is beautiful and it wouldn’t bother me a bit if it became the norm, why is it prefered over music which predates it?

By that logic, why couldn’t someone argue that some form of modern liturgical music is better than Gregorian Chant (please don’t tell me because the catechism says so…I’m asking from a logical pov, not a dogmatic pov.) btw…I personally don’t think anyone could make that argument based on what I’ve heard, but for arguments sake…
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The music which predates it is Old Roman Chant, of which one can sometimes find recordings. Although I am a rank amateur at making the distinction, Old Roman Chant has a clearer demarcation between soloist and Schola, and the ornamentation is less elaborate than in Gregorian Chant. Although no manuscripts that old survive, Roman Chant was developed in its essentials by the fifth century. Gregorian Chant came to be when there was a hybridization of Roman Chant and the (Gallican) Chant of Frankish Gaul under the Carolingians.

If you check amazon or another online source, you can search for “Roman Chant”. It is quite interesting.

Justin
 
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ComradeAndrei:
Likewise, while drums and dancing may have a role in Mass in Africa it does NOT have a role in the suburbs of the U.S. I am younger (22) and I just abhore secularizations of Mass. I am young, but I don’t need to be lured to Mass with lights and sounds. To me, there is no one more lame than those that would have the Church try to pander to the “younger generation” and likewise nothing lamer than a Catholic Mass that tries hard to discard the beautiful musical tradition of Catholicism for some bastardization of protestant “worship music”.
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I guess it’s just not old farts like me (I’m 28) that think this way. I am a convert from Evangelical Protestantism and the church I came from grew from about 24 people to one of the largest churches in the state of Oregon (about 6000 attendees every Sunday) in little more than 25 years. And the pastor who grew the church at this pace wouldn’t allow anything other than an organ, this goofy looking dude on stage who couldn’t carry a tune, and old timey hymns. It certainly wasn’t contemporary music that made the church grow, it was the message (he was pretty orthodox Protestant).
 
The chant modes of the Church developed into the Major and Minor scales of modern music. As part of my band director job, I also teach a small music theory class, and we’ve been doing some study into how these things work.

Rummaging around the music cabinet at church this morning, I discovered the St. Gregory Hymnal. With my priest’s permission, I took a copy with me, and I’m going to use it in class this week to give a demonstration of the modes.

Going through it, however, coupled with being a part of this board and reading a lot of your thoughts on the subject, I’m going to make it a goal to start bringing some of the chants, latin hymns, and motetes found in this hymnal back to use in our parish.

I also made this comment to my pastor who gave his permission, however it was given in the “don’t do too much too fast” caveat. We won’t be chanting the Creed anytime soon, but a Latin motet at Communion certainly has potential and quite soon.

evil laugh

👍
 
I can’t remember the album title but Joel Coehen and the Boston Camarata did a “comparison” album in which a cantor sang the original Jewish chant and then a choir did the Gregorian version. It was very interesting. If I get time today I’ll see if I can find the album title and see if amazon has it.

We still had copies of the St. Gregory Hymnal at the cathedral and used them. Surprisingly, we had a few copies of the Episcopalian 1941 hymnal which had some very eloquent translations of some of the sequences - Lauda Sion, the golden sequence, etc. which we used before we got permission to switch to the Latin. Same thing went with their translation of Palestrina’s Sicut Cervus - Like as the hart desireth the water brook.
 
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MusicMan:
Going through it, however, coupled with being a part of this board and reading a lot of your thoughts on the subject, I’m going to make it a goal to start bringing some of the chants, latin hymns, and motetes found in this hymnal back to use in our parish.

evil laugh

👍
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Very cool, it is spreading…BUWAHAHAHAHA!!!
 
Myself and several seminarians I know are all taking a gregorian chant class next semester. In the class we will all learn how to chant the mass both in Latin and English. I’m very excited.

It’s a small seminary but probably 1/4th of the guys there are going to be in the chant class this semester. Very encouraging.
 
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arieh0310:
Very cool, it is spreading…BUWAHAHAHAHA!!!
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I think there is an interesting phenomenon going on in the music world of the US. There are a large number of “younger” band directors who have seen the “progress” made by the generation of directors in the generation inbetween us and own own high school/college director’s generation. We’re not impressed. We’ve gone back to the “old school” methods. Having been absent for a generation, sadly, what was “old” is now “new” again, and just as effective as when it was the norm.

I think we’ve got the same thing happening in the music of the Church. After a generation of parish music directors having us sing “Gather Us In” week after week (I like it just fine, but in moderation, as with all things), or illicit things like The Mass of Remembrance, where the priest has a “part” for singing the Eucharistic Prayer with accompaniment, my generation is looking back at the “old” and saying, “Why did we ever get away from this?” Having been absent for a generation, sadly, what was “old” is now “new” again, and just as effective as when it was the norm.

The high school I graduated from taught three foreign languages: German, Spanish, and Latin. I’m very glad I took German because of how much I use it as a music teacher, but boy do I regret not taking Latin. I would be much happier in my sacred music life if I had. I’m trying to learn it on my own, with pronunciation help from my vocal music counterpart at the school I teach at. 😦
 
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matthias:
Myself and several seminarians I know are all taking a gregorian chant class next semester. In the class we will all learn how to chant the mass both in Latin and English. I’m very excited.

It’s a small seminary but probably 1/4th of the guys there are going to be in the chant class this semester. Very encouraging.
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Hi Matthias…I am wondering if you also are a seminarian. Blessings on you all anyway:wave: …our spiritual leaders of tomorrow. Peace, Joy, Love, Faith, Hope, Fortitude - inspiration! Most of all and summarizing all gifts: happiness and fulfillment.

A small seminary huh…perhaps The Lord looks to quality rather than quantity?🙂 … here in Australia nowadays our extremely large Seminary is sold due to few vocations indeed and we only have a very small seminary … but signs here in Australia are, the drift, that vocations to the priesthood have very slowly increased.

In my old parish our assistant priest (young) does chant a few parts of The Mass, and tho he cannot chant well at all, it was music to my ears and joy to my spirit, just to hear Gregorian Chant in a Mass today.

I have not been able to read all Posts by far, not in full anyway, but it seems there is real positive interest in returning Gregorian Chant to our liturgy at least in part.

Thank you very much to all who have posted.

Regards all…Barb, South Australia
 
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matthias:
I just might be, ;).
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Thank you!😉 …I have since my birthday on the 5th.Jan (60th) and celebrated with my family today, stumbled over on CAF a young woman probably called to contemplative religious life, a Carmelite Priest vocation and a probable seminarian. Priviledge… and my heart shall dance all day because of it!http://bestsmileys.com/dancing/9.gif

May The Lord bless you all in a special way…and in blessing you all, bless all of us.

Barb, Sth. Aust.
 
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