Gregorian Mass at a religious community

[Ora_et_Labora_1]

Last Sunday I attended the Gregorian at a nuns’ chapel. It was a bit different from where I serve. I noticed the following:

• the prayers at the foot of the altar were inaudible, while the nuns sang something;
• the readings were in Latin;
• the nuns sang for a while when the Ofertory begun;
• the Johannine Prologue reading was inaudible.

As I’m still learning about the Gregorian Mass I was just wondering, do religious communities have rubrics that apply only to them?

 

[malphono]

Last Sunday I attended the Gregorian at a nuns’ chapel. It was a bit different from where I serve. I noticed the following:

• the prayers at the foot of the altar were inaudible, while the nuns sang something;
• the readings were in Latin;
• the nuns sang for a while when the Ofertory begun;
• the Johannine Prologue reading was inaudible.

As I’m still learning about the Gregorian Mass I was just wondering, do religious communities have rubrics that apply only to them?

By “Gregorian Mass” I’m assuming you mean the EF (aka “TLM”). (The term “Gregorian Mass” itself has another distinct meaning.)

If it was the EF, it was apparently a Missa Cantata (Sung or “High” Mass). Perhaps you might explain how it was “different” from the EF you otherwise attend. That would help in addressing the question.

 

[MarkThompson]

Last Sunday I attended the Gregorian at a nuns’ chapel. It was a bit different from where I serve. I noticed the following:

• the prayers at the foot of the altar were inaudible, while the nuns sang something;
• the readings were in Latin;
• the nuns sang for a while when the Ofertory begun;
• the Johannine Prologue reading was inaudible.

As I’m still learning about the Gregorian Mass I was just wondering, do religious communities have rubrics that apply only to them?

I agree – assuming you’re talking about the TLM (i.e., Extraordinary Form), the norm is that the readings are in Latin and the prayers and Last Gospel are inaudible.

 

[Ora_et_Labora_1]

Yes, the EF (here it is sometimes called the Gregorian Mass). Perhaps it was a High Mass, since practically all audible parts were sung (excepting the homily). I was under the impression though that incense was used for a High Mass, or is that optional?

Where I serve, we are a fairly small community, generally 5 of us (already counting the priest) on a regular Sunday. Sometimes less; even rarer is more. There it is always a Low Mass given the small number of people attending. The readings are also always in the vernacular.

 

[HCC]

Cardinal Hoyos has said the proper name for the “EF” is The Gregorian Mass:

“Many of the difficulties come because they don’t know the reality of the Gregorian Rite - this is the just name for the Extraordinary Form, because this Mass was never prevented, never.”

Full text here:

tridentine.tv/

 

[MarkThompson]

Cardinal Hoyos has said the proper name for the “EF” is The Gregorian Mass:

Ironically, the proper name for “Cardinal Hoyos” is Cardinal Castrillón (or Castrillón Hoyos).

But since “Gregorian Mass” already has a different, specific meaning (at least in English, which is not His Eminence’s language), I can’t imagine why anyone would want to blur that by promoting this confusing usage.

 

[Chatter163]

Yes, the EF (here it is sometimes called the Gregorian Mass). Perhaps it was a High Mass, since practically all audible parts were sung (excepting the homily). I was under the impression though that incense was used for a High Mass, or is that optional?

Where I serve, we are a fairly small community, generally 5 of us (already counting the priest) on a regular Sunday. Sometimes less; even rarer is more. There it is always a Low Mass given the small number of people attending. The readings are also always in the vernacular.

In the 1962 missal a Missa Cantata (Sung Mass) can be either with or without incense. Once upon a time an indult was needed to have it without incense (and that permission was fairly commonly given), but in the later years of the old missal, an indult was not needed. Nowadays most EF Sung Masses use incense. Solemn Masses with deacon and subdeacon must use incense.

Everything that you described is normal. Permission was given in recent years to have the EF readings read only in the vernacular, but this is rarely done, so you are indeed in an unusual situation. Most places on Sunday have the readings said or sung in Latin, then they are reread in the vernacular just before the sermon. When this is done, only the first proclamation in Latin is the “official” one; the second is not considered part of the Order of Mass. At weekday Low Masses some places do the same double proclamation, but more have only Latin at those Masses.

 

[Ora_et_Labora_1]

In the 1962 missal a Missa Cantata (Sung Mass) can be either with or without incense. Once upon a time an indult was needed to have it without incense (and that permission was fairly commonly given), but in the later years of the old missal, an indult was not needed. Nowadays most EF Sung Masses use incense. Solemn Masses with deacon and subdeacon must use incense.

Everything that you described is normal. Permission was given in recent years to have the EF readings read only in the vernacular, but this is rarely done, so you are indeed in an unusual situation. Most places on Sunday have the readings said or sung in Latin, then they are reread in the vernacular just before the sermon. When this is done, only the first proclamation in Latin is the “official” one; the second is not considered part of the Order of Mass. At weekday Low Masses some places do the same double proclamation, but more have only Latin at those Masses.

Oh, I wasn’t worried if it was abnormal, given that the nuns belong to a very orthodox congregation; I was just curious as to how much the rite can vary given that I hear that it is “rigidly codified”.

As for were I generally go being in an unusual situation, you don’t know the half of it. We are the ONLY diocesian EF Mass in all of Portugal (I think there are also 3 SSPX chapels scattered throughout the country). Many Portuguese (even clergy!) are ignorant about the Summorum Pontificum. As for the readings being only in the vernacular, I think there are two main reasons for it:

1 - Time constraints: The chapel where the EF is celebrated is lent to the priest as a “favor”. When the Mass ends the community (whose priest is no friend of the EF) that uses it comes to pray Vespers, so we have to be out of there quickly;

2 - There is an old woman that goes there who has no Missal and who says all the responses in the vernacular. So perhaps out of courtesy and also influenced by the time constraints, the readings are only in the vernacular.

 

[malphono]

As for were I generally go being in an unusual situation, you don’t know the half of it. We are the ONLY diocesian EF Mass in all of Portugal (I think there are also 3 SSPX chapels scattered throughout the country). Many Portuguese (even clergy!) are ignorant about the Summorum Pontificum.

I had heard there was at least one place in or near Braga that regularly offered Mass in Latin according to the traditional Missal of the Bragan Rite. Do you know if that’s changed?

 

[JReducation]

Last Sunday I attended the Gregorian at a nuns’ chapel. It was a bit different from where I serve. I noticed the following:

• the prayers at the foot of the altar were inaudible, while the nuns sang something;
• the readings were in Latin;
• the nuns sang for a while when the Ofertory begun;
• the Johannine Prologue reading was inaudible.

As I’m still learning about the Gregorian Mass I was just wondering, do religious communities have rubrics that apply only to them?

The bold is mine. To answer the poster’s question, the answer is yes. This has to be correctly understood.

We have in the Church what we call exempt religious orders. If the celebrant belongs to one of those exempt religious orders, he may follow the rubrics for his religious community, even when he celebrates the mass outside of his religious house.

There are lectionaries, missals and breviaries for certain religious orders. I don’t remember all of them. I can rattle off a few: Benedictine, Franciscan, Carmelite, Dominican, Carthusian and Jesuits. There are others too.

Often the differences are in details that the average person in the pew would not even notice such as:

• A different liturgical calendar
• Manner of receiving communion
• Who can celebrate the mass
• Prayers
• The use of or prohibition of Gregorian chant
• The proclamation of the scriptures
• Laity at the mass
• Organization of space

Often, these religious communities are grouped under the title, “orders”, while the other religious communities who do not have these exemptions are grouped under the title congregations and societies of apostolic life. All make the same vows, but to different degrees. All serve to enrich the spiritual life of the Church, but in very different ways. All are holy, with the emphasis on different aspects of holiness.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[preV2tradcath]

Last Sunday I attended the Gregorian at a nuns’ chapel. It was a bit different from where I serve. I noticed the following:

• the prayers at the foot of the altar were inaudible, while the nuns sang something;
• the readings were in Latin;
• the nuns sang for a while when the Ofertory begun;
• the Johannine Prologue reading was inaudible.

As I’m still learning about the Gregorian Mass I was just wondering, do religious communities have rubrics that apply only to them?

Most likely it was the Introit the nuns were singing during the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar. You may have also heard them sing the Kyrie shortly afterwards. Even if they added something else afterwards, the first thing they probably sang at the Offertory was the Offertory verse of the Mass.

 

[JReducation]

Most likely it was the Introit the nuns were singing during the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar. You may have also heard them sing the Kyrie shortly afterwards. Even if they added something else afterwards, the first thing they probably sang at the Offertory was the Offertory verse of the Mass.

I was thinking Carmelite, because they celebrated the EF in this manner long before Vatican II. It’s part of their exemption. But the OP does not say what order of nuns or if the celebrant was a friar. They always had a very different manner of celebrating the Tridentine mass. It was very musical as in a lot of singing.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[preV2tradcath]

I was thinking Carmelite, because they celebrated the EF in this manner long before Vatican II. It’s part of their exemption. But the OP does not say what order of nuns or if the celebrant was a friar. They always had a very different manner of celebrating the Tridentine mass. It was very musical as in a lot of singing.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you for the information about the Carmelites, Br JR. The way I described is what happens at our diocesan EF Mass when we have a Missa Cantata. It is just what I have experienced at any Missa Cantata or Solemn High Mass that was not being celebrated by a religious community. My post was worded the way it was to not indicate something definite. Like you, I don’t know what order the nuns belong to, and I wasn’t there. I wanted to allow for any differences they are granted as members of their religious order.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you for the information about the Carmelites, Br JR. The way I described is what happens at our diocesan EF Mass when we have a Missa Cantata. It is just what I have experienced at any Missa Cantata or Solemn High Mass that was not being celebrated by a religious community. My post was worded the way it was to not indicate something definite. Like you, I don’t know what order the nuns belong to, and I wasn’t there. I wanted to allow for any differences they are granted as members of their religious order.

You’re right, it could be a Missa Cantata. Since the OP asked about the religious orders, that’s why my mind when to the differences in rubrics. Most people don’t know that many of us, my community included, have our own missal with our own rubrics. That’s something that I always try to explain to people when they say to me, “The GIRM says this.” I always tell them, “I don’t follow the Roman Missal. We have what is called the Roman-Franciscan Missal.” They just look at me as if I had just said something odd.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Ora_et_Labora_1]

The nuns belong to the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, in case any one was wondering.

 

[At_Trent]

Ironically, the proper name for “Cardinal Hoyos” is Cardinal Castrillón (or Castrillón Hoyos).

But since “Gregorian Mass” already has a different, specific meaning (at least in English, which is not His Eminence’s language), I can’t imagine why anyone would want to blur that by promoting this confusing usage.

Where would one find a source to back the claim the term “Gregorian Mass” has a different meaning ?

 

[malphono]

Where would one find a source to back the claim the term “Gregorian Mass” has a different meaning ?

The term “Gregorian Mass” has been around for ages. In an earlier [post=6991661]post[/post] I embedded a link. For the sake of clarity I’ll repeat it here: ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur267.htm.

 

[Ora_et_Labora_1]

I had heard there was at least one place in or near Braga that regularly offered Mass in Latin according to the traditional Missal of the Bragan Rite. Do you know if that’s changed?

I’m unaware of this. I’ll try to find out and let you know.

 

[At_Trent]

Cardinal Hoyos has said the proper name for the “EF” is The Gregorian Mass:

“Many of the difficulties come because they don’t know the reality of the Gregorian Rite - this is the just name for the Extraordinary Form, because this Mass was never prevented, never.”

Full text here:

tridentine.tv/

Ironically, the proper name for “Cardinal Hoyos” is Cardinal Castrillón (or Castrillón Hoyos).

But since “Gregorian Mass” already has a different, specific meaning (at least in English, which is not His Eminence’s language), I can’t imagine why anyone would want to blur that by promoting this confusing usage.

Where would one find a source to back the claim the term “Gregorian Mass” has a different meaning ?

The term** “Gregorian Mass” **has been around for ages. In an earlier [post=6991661]post[/post] I embedded a link. For the sake of clarity I’ll repeat it here: ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur267.htm.

Sorry, but the Good Cardinal is right and HCC is right. The Gregorian Mass = Gregorian Rite. The link you provided pertains to the term Gregorian Masses, not Gregorian Mass

I saw the link you posted and figure you misread HCC’s post. I was asking Mark for a source since he was so sure he was right. HCC wasn’t “blurring” anything as Mark insisted.

Gregorian Rite or Gregorian Mass is a term to describe the Mass per the 1962 missal.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I just thought I would add that, although from your later description of the amount of singning this definitely sounds like a missa cantata, it is also possible for the four points you highlighted in the original post to have occurred at a low Mass. In the early 20th century indults were granted for the singing of hymns at certain points during a low Mass (what in America is often called the “four hymn sandwich”), and present-day celebrations of low-Mass often continue this usage. Thus the hymn singing, which is technically not part of the Mass at all, covers up the prayers at the foot of the altar and part of the offertory.