Guidance from a professional

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flick427

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I am a conservative Catholic who has only been back to the church from a little over a year now. I grew up around the Novous Ordo and only knew of the Tridentine Mass from older family members. A while ago, I was starting to make some progress in discerning a vocation, however, it suddenly got much more difficult I have seen and heard of many liturgical abuses and would rather not dwell on them so much. I attend the Novous Ordo but was looking to the Tridentine Mass because it seems far more beautiful to me. I investigated a few Traditional Orders (not is person though) only to find out that they were SSPX or some sort of “splinter group” I am actually in favor of going back to the Latin Mass, but as much as these traditionalist say they are true Catholics, it eats away at the whole “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic” belief. I am aware of Ecclesia Dei, but that is the “Latin Mass with a few changes” and I am not sure if I should go for that. I am basically looking for straightfoward unbiased and truthfull information on all of this confusion. I have heard Michael Davies is good, but I am looking for other as well.
Any assistance would be appreciated.
 
Hi flick,

If you are leaning towards the TLM, then you might be interested in the Preistly Fraternity of Saint Peter (FSSP). While not the Tridentine Mass, the train to the 1962 Mass in Latin.
fssp.org/en/index.htm

Their seminary is in Denton, Nebraska.

P.S. Good luck in your discernment. I will add you to my prayers.
 
I second the motion - FFSP is approved and their priests are very well formed. Look into their seminary. And hurry up - we need more priests to say the Tridentine Masses:)
 
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flick427:
I am aware of Ecclesia Dei, but that is the “Latin Mass with a few changes” and I am not sure if I should go for that. I am basically looking for straightfoward unbiased and truthfull information on all of this confusion. I have heard Michael Davies is good, but I am looking for other as well.
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Ecclesia Dei is the document that defines the rules for bishops to allow the 1962 Mass. Not sure what you mean by “Latin Mass with a few changes”. 1962 is the only licit TLM.

Anything of Davies’ that I’ve seen is very biased and full of half-truths.

And for what it’s worth, you don’t need to be in FSSP to have an interest in the TLM. Our priest helps out with the local TLM and he attended a diocesan seminary, in the 80’s I believe. I think you’ll need to examine your belief “I am actually in favor of going back to the Latin Mass”, because I hope no seminary is teaching its priests to work toward that unrealistic goal.
 
Brian, what does this mean? " While not the Tridentine Mass, the train to the 1962 Mass in Latin"

The Tridentine Mass is the Mass in accordance with the 1962 Missal and it is what the FSSP priests are trained to celebrate.
 
Melman - regarding the statement

“I am actually in favor of going back to the Latin Mass”,

Just shows how two people can read the same sentence with two different conclusions. I read that as his personally in favor of going back to the Latin Mass and you read it as the Church going back to the Latin Mass.

Guess he will have to clarify this one for us.
 
Melman:

I do realize I have some errors in my knowledge of Ecclesia Dei and all that. That is my problem basically, I am getting nothing but biased information everywhere I look. I tried the traditio.com website, and it seemed fine at first, but then I noticed it seemed a little too negative and that is not what I am looking for. Some people are a little too traditional to the point that it only degrades the other side. I suppose constructive criticism is what I am looking for…Ahh, it is too bad St. thomas Aquinas is not around.

Oh yeah as far as my statement on going back to the Latin Mass…I am a very conservative type and have grown to appreciate order and formalities (within reason). I am in the military but in the Air Force, we don’t do enough drill and ceremony and that is one of my reasons I wish I was a Marine instead…hah hah…but I like the Latin Mass because of this. I don’t want to be a Novous Ordo priest and look at the other guys thinking: “Wow, look how neat that is, I wish I was part of that”…I hope that clarifies.
Thank you very much for you advice, I can use it!
God Bless!
 
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flick427:
I do realize I have some errors in my knowledge of Ecclesia Dei and all that. That is my problem basically, I am getting nothing but biased information everywhere I look. I tried the traditio.com website, and it seemed fine at first, but then I noticed it seemed a little too negative and that is not what I am looking for. Some people are a little too traditional to the point that it only degrades the other side.
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I agree 100%. If not more.

Until recently, I had never heard of the TLM. Never even heard anyone mention it, and I was an altar boy back in the 1970’s when memories of it should still have been fresh. But in my (orthodox) parish and among my relatives, it was dead and forgotten. So to find so much controversy about it online, now, came as a big surprise.

We have probably both fallen into the same traps, looked at many of the same web sites. Every Catholic forum site (including this one) has a disproportionate number of users who sprinkle their posts with Latin, and take every opportunity to spout the “TLM is the only way” party line. Don’t be misled. Don’t get me wrong, there are many nice and sincere TLM folks here too… but again, the amount of discussion does give the impression that this is a more significant issue in today’s Church, than it really is.

I think progress is being made to bring the N.O. mass into line in many areas, so a knee-jerk reaction of abandoning the N.O. for the TLM is not necessarily right for everyone. FSSP’s (one) seminary is full, but how much demand for the TLM will there be 10 years from now? More than today? I tend to doubt it.
 
Flick - yes, you must be careful because there are many SSPX and SSPV and other sites that are not in harmony with the Church and their masses are not licit.

The FFSP site is good.

Also ecclesiadei.org/ lists ecclesiastically approved Traditional Diocese Traditional Latin Masses so you don’t end up in the wrong ones.

institute-christ-king.org/ is also approved by the Church to train and celebrate the Tridentine Masses exclusively as are FFSP priests.

As Melman said, you don’t have to be in one of these organizations to celebrate the Tridentine Mass but you do need to know Latin and some seminaries don’t even offer that in the U.S. today even though it is mandated to do so by canon law. And you do have to have faculties in your particular diocese, whether you are an individual priest or one of the above trained priests to celebrate the Tridentine Mass in your Diocese.

Not all Bishops have been generous in allowing the Tridentine Mass (by special Indult currently) to have Indult (Tridentine Mass - in accordance with 1962 Missal) in their dioceses.

It has been suggested by Cardinal Hoyas that a universal Indult may be forthcoming which would allow the Mass to be celebrated in all Dioceses. It is not the intention of the Eclesia Dei commission to replace the N.O. Mass but rather to allow both to be celebrated.

Hope this helps.
 
" but how much demand for the TLM will there be 10 years from now? More than today? I tend to doubt it."

Maybe so, maybe not. But on what do you base your supposition?

I tend to think it will be about the same… that a certain % of Catholics will still be drawn to that Mass albeit a small percent.
 
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deogratias:
But on what do you base your supposition?

I tend to think it will be about the same… that a certain % of Catholics will still be drawn to that Mass albeit a small percent.
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I come up with my prediction the same way you come up with yours. 🙂 Probably not much more demand. Maybe not much less either.
 
I just got back from a deployment and the preist I had there was a really good man. He mentioned FSSP to me. I have witten to them and they sent what I would call their “recruit package”. The only thing that bothers me about them is as I saw the pictures of everything and how nice it was, I worry that is may have some people that ae a little superficial…but of course there is corruption everywhere! I wish there was a firmly established order of Carmelites or Franciscans to join that were traditional and not SSPX or anything else like that. I’d definetly jump on that. I seem to lean more towards the religious orders because of the spirituality and community. I’d finance it myself if I had the money!
Well, if anyone finds a good unbiased source on all this, please let me know.
Thanks again for your help!

Vaya con Dios!
 
Well there are some Traditional Benedictines and one in this country is located, in all places, Oklahoma.

clearcreekmonks.org/

Our Lady of the Annunciation of Clear Creek is a Benedictine monastery in the diocese of Tulsa, Oklahoma. The founding monks at Clear Creek were all members of the monastic community at Fontgombault, France, or of her daughterhouses Randol, Triors, and Gaussan. Fontgombault, a medieval abbey in central France, is a member of the Congregation of Solesmes.
I hear they have wonderful retreats especially for men.

Our Lady of Clear Creek follows the approved monastic usages and calendar of the Abbey of Fontgombault. The liturgy is celebrated according to the indult granted to Fontgombault and her daughter houses, and uses the 1962 Missal with certain minor modifications at High Mass. The gregorian chanting, I hear, is magnificant. One may visit or make private retreats also. Guests may stay for a day, a weekend or longer

If you had some time off to visit there, it might give you an idea if that would be the kind of vocation you were being called to - as it seems you are indeed being called to some vocation.

God bless you and I’ll pray that wherever the Holy Spirit leads you will be where God wishes you to do his work.
 
Melman:
I come up with my prediction the same way you come up with yours. 🙂 Probably not much more demand. Maybe not much less either.
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👍

By the way - you have learned quite a bit about TLM, licit, illicit, valid and invalid, etc. in a short time - I’m impressed.
 
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deogratias:
Brian, what does this mean? " While not the Tridentine Mass, the train to the 1962 Mass in Latin"

The Tridentine Mass is the Mass in accordance with the 1962 Missal and it is what the FSSP priests are trained to celebrate.
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Some purists have argued that the 1962 Mass of John XXIII is not the Tridentine Mass of Pius V. A couple of prayers were deleted from the 1962 missal (I don’t have the materials with me at the moment).

Personally, I see it as distinction without difference, but I have consistently seen the Tridentine Mass referred to as the pre-1962 missal.
 
Melman, you like to continue to take shots, dont you? Not much more demand for the TLM in 10 years? Based on what Melamn?

I guess one could say as a percentage of overall Catholics, yes, it will still be a small percantage, but Melman, guess what, untill the mid 90s, very few dioceses had the indult. The indult was not given in any generous manner, many dioceses had few priests willing to celebrate the Tridentine mass even if an Indult was given. And in many dioceses that did grant the indult, it was granted at inconvient times and locations. It wasnt untill the mid to late 90s that the TLM started to become a bit more stable in terms of locations and in terms of priests willing to celebrate it.

So yes, melman, be rest assured that a vast majority of Catholics will worship the way they do now, hopefully with a better translation of the current missal, but as the TLM becomes more widely available, as the FSSP seminary grows(it is doubling its capacity right now), as liberal Bishops continue to retire, the number of Catholics attending the TLM will continue to grow. Demand has nowhere to go but up. The fact that the FSSP seminary had 120 men apply for entry last year, but only 12 were accepted speaks volumes on the vitality of the TLM.
 
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flick427:
II am basically looking for straightfoward unbiased and truthfull information on all of this confusion. I have heard Michael Davies is good, but I am looking for other as well.
Any assistance would be appreciated.
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You may want to start here:
unavoce.org/
 
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BrianDay:
Some purists have argued that the 1962 Mass of John XXIII is not the Tridentine Mass of Pius V. A couple of prayers were deleted from the 1962 missal (I don’t have the materials with me at the moment).

Personally, I see it as distinction without difference, but I have consistently seen the Tridentine Mass referred to as the pre-1962 missal.
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Well be that as it may, when the Bishop grants the Indult for the Tridentine Mass to be celebrated, he means in accordance with the 1962 Missal.

One prayer omitted, I believe was the second confetior (said before communion). I doubt you can find any but a 1962 Missal online but I do have my mother’s old Missal and that is the only prayer I can find omitted off hand.
 
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deogratias:
Well be that as it may, when the Bishop grants the Indult for the Tridentine Mass to be celebrated, he means in accordance with the 1962 Missal.

One prayer omitted, I believe was the second confetior (said before communion). I doubt you can find any but a 1962 Missal online but I do have my mother’s old Missal and that is the only prayer I can find omitted off hand.
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That and the prayers after the final Gospel (Hail Holy Queen, and the 3 Hail Marys).

There may be one or two others, but as I said, I don’t have access at the moment.
 
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