Guidelines for celebrating the EF in newer churches

  • Thread starter Thread starter leinadster
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

leinadster

Guest
Good evening everyone, this is my first post in CAF. (If this thread belongs to the Liturgy forum please move it)

I am a novice altar server in the EF and I serve regularly. We are going to have a TLM soon in a parish near my house and I am giving basic training for the servers there. As you know, the tabernacle in most V2 churches are not in the center, but either in the epistle or gospel side, generally a few steps away from the altar. The altar is made out of wood and of course, has no relics.

My questions are:


  1. *]In which direction shall we genuflect? At the foot of the altar in the center or in the direction on where the tabernacle is?
    *]What to do when the altar has no relics of saints? What it is said at the “quorum reliquiae hic sunct” in this case?

    Any other suggestions/comments will be appreciated.

    Thank you.
 
leinadster said:
Good evening everyone, this is my first post in CAF. (If this thread belongs to the Liturgy forum please move it)

I am a novice altar server in the EF and I serve regularly. We are going to have a TLM soon in a parish near my house and I am giving basic training for the servers there. As you know, the tabernacle in most V2 churches are not in the center, but either in the epistle or gospel side, generally a few steps away from the altar. The altar is made out of wood and of course, has no relics.

My questions are:


  1. *]In which direction shall we genuflect? At the foot of the altar in the center or in the direction on where the tabernacle is?
    *]What to do when the altar has no relics of saints? What it is said at the “quorum reliquiae hic sunct” in this case?

    Any other suggestions/comments will be appreciated.

    Thank you.
Click to expand...

  1. Congratulations on being able to serve the Mass of the Ages! I can’t give you an answer on question 1 with 100% certainty, but as far as question 2, if you can bring relics to place on the altar, this is acceptable.
 
Ghislieri said:
Congratulations on being able to serve the Mass of the Ages! I can’t give you an answer on question 1 with 100% certainty, but as far as question 2, if you can bring relics to place on the altar, this is acceptable.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your feedback 🙂

What if I don’t have any sort of relics at all? I have a second class relic of St. Teresa of Avila, a piece of cloth from her garments. As far as I know, it has to be first class relics.
 
leinadster said:
Thanks for your feedback 🙂

What if I don’t have any sort of relics at all? I have a second class relic of St. Teresa of Avila, a piece of cloth from her garments. As far as I know, it has to be first class relics.
Click to expand...
I believe you’re right about it having to be first class. Let me ask some of the priests I know that are experts on this and I’ll respond back.
 
leinadster said:
Thanks for your feedback 🙂

What if I don’t have any sort of relics at all? I have a second class relic of St. Teresa of Avila, a piece of cloth from her garments. As far as I know, it has to be first class relics.
Click to expand...
  1. You genuflect as usual. The priest bows at the beginning and end, else he genuflects throughout. I think that’s right. Or you could do what some Navy chaplains do, which is put a portable tabernacle (!) on the altar.
  2. Your altar doesn’t have relics in or under it? That is odd. Ask your priest to ask your bishop to ask the Holy See for one.
 
Ghislieri said:
Not in many NO parish’s in my neck of the woods.
Click to expand...
I’m sorry.
Lucky7 said:
Are we running out of relics???
Click to expand...
No, but it seems to have been fashionable in some parts of the world to not put relics in/on/under/whatever altars for a while following the promulgation of the Novus Ordo.

It was common in my diocese for a while, but it is a dead fashion now, thank God. Our altars both have relics in them. The altar in the parish down the street doesn’t have one, but when our new church is built, it will certainly have relics in the altars. No altar is installed now without them here.
 
YoungTradCath said:
  1. Your altar doesn’t have relics in or under it? That is odd. Ask your priest to ask your bishop to ask the Holy See for one.
Click to expand...
Nope, it is an ordinary large wood table used as an altar, it is blessed though. It’s a church built 15 years ago.

So, we need to get relics? There is in town a jesuit church and they have first class relics of many jesuit saints, I think it won’t be an issue to request one relic directly with them, right?
 
leinadster said:
Nope, it is an ordinary large wood table used as an altar, it is blessed though. It’s a church built 15 years ago.

So, we need to get relics? There is in town a jesuit church and they have first class relics of many jesuit saints, I think it won’t be an issue to request one relic directly with them, right?
Click to expand...
=|

No, I don’t think it would be too much trouble.
 
Lormar said:
Then why do they kiss the altar? I thought the point of doing that was to honor the relics in the altar stone, no? :confused:
Click to expand...
In the EF there is an explicit reference to that. In the OF the practice was maintained but the reference was shifted from relics to altar as symbol of Christ. So in a sense you are symbolically kissing Christ. I think that is the thinking.
 
YoungTradCath said:
In the EF there is an explicit reference to that. In the OF the practice was maintained but the reference was shifted from relics to altar as symbol of Christ. So in a sense you are symbolically kissing Christ. I think that is the thinking.
Click to expand...
Thank you. I think I will ask the priest on Sunday and see what he says. If I remember. The memory isn’t what it used to be. :o
 
I believe Michael Davies mentioned that this done in the “spirit of VII”, as the invocation of the saints was offensive to the Protestants. If I remember correctly (I don’t have my 1962 missal handy at the moment), in the TLM the saints are invoked with the words “whose relics are here” (I think). The wording was done away with in 1970 missal. I remember Davies saying that this shouldn’t come as a surprise, as wood tables were then allowed, and since one cannot place relics in these wood tables, there might not be relics, and therefore you couldn’t invoke the saints because they wouldn’t be there anyway.
 
In the website of the Canons Regular of Saint John Cantius they uploaded the ritual for blessing of the antimension (the same as the byzantine counterpart, except that in the Roman Rite it is blessed by any priest, the orthodox practice is that the bishop signs and consecrates the antimension).

It will take time but I think I can do it.
 
Ghislieri said:
I believe Michael Davies mentioned that this done in the “spirit of VII”, as the invocation of the saints was offensive to the Protestants. If I remember correctly (I don’t have my 1962 missal handy at the moment), in the TLM the saints are invoked with the words “whose relics are here” (I think). The wording was done away with in 1970 missal. I remember Davies saying that this shouldn’t come as a surprise, as wood tables were then allowed, and since one cannot place relics in these wood tables, there might not be relics, and therefore you couldn’t invoke the saints because they wouldn’t be there anyway.
Click to expand...
That part says “quorum reliquiae hic sunct” whose relics are here…
 
Ghislieri said:
I believe Michael Davies mentioned that this done in the “spirit of VII”, as the invocation of the saints was offensive to the Protestants. If I remember correctly (I don’t have my 1962 missal handy at the moment), in the TLM the saints are invoked with the words “whose relics are here” (I think). The wording was done away with in 1970 missal. I remember Davies saying that this shouldn’t come as a surprise, as wood tables were then allowed, and since one cannot place relics in these wood tables, there might not be relics, and therefore you couldn’t invoke the saints because they wouldn’t be there anyway.
Click to expand...
For the record, wooden altars are not absolutely bad. There are examples of old altars made of wood. Many of them have marble mensae, but then again many do not. I agree that the modern examples of wooden altars are often bad, but they needn’t be. I agree that marble or some other stone is usually better, but wood is not horrible.

Relics can and should be placed in wooden altars.
leinadster said:
In the website of the Canons Regular of Saint John Cantius they uploaded the ritual for blessing of the antimension (the same as the byzantine counterpart, except that in the Roman Rite it is blessed by any priest, the orthodox practice is that the bishop signs and consecrates the antimension).

It will take time but I think I can do it.
Click to expand...
But don’t you need relics for an antimension?
 
YoungTradCath said:
For the record, wooden altars are not absolutely bad. There are examples of old altars made of wood. Many of them have marble mensae, but then again many do not. I agree that the modern examples of wooden altars are often bad, but they needn’t be. I agree that marble or some other stone is usually better, but wood is not horrible.

Relics can and should be placed in wooden altars.

But don’t you need relics for an antimension?
Click to expand...
Point taken. I remember the first parish I attended when I was coming into the Church, and asked what relics were in the altar (it was wooden). They looked at me like I was speaking a foreign language and said the Church used to do that, but we don’t have that here.:nope:
 
If the tabernacle is in the sanctuary behind and near the altar, one would genuflect toward the tablernacle if the Most Blessed Sacrament is reserved. Otherwise the acolytes genuflect and the priest bows.

You can ask the priest who will be celebrating, he may already have an antimension or an altar stone which he uses if he habitually celebrates the EF. If the parish does not have an altar stone in the sacristy, there may be one not being used in a local parish, or even the chancery. Should the priest not have one of his own, you may be able to borrow, or obtain one to give to him as a gift, which may encourage him to use it and celebrate the EF more frequently.

The Latin Rite Antimension is about the size of a corporal, and made of the same cloth (Linen or Hemp are both permitted). The relics should be availible to priests of the Diocese, and are usually sewn into a small pocket in the corner in Latin Rite Antimensia. The Ritual is in the 1962 Pontifical. Normally only a priest or deacon would place and remove it from the altar, although a Sacristian can be delegated if needed.
 
YoungTradCath said:
Relics can and should be placed in wooden altars.
Click to expand...
The custom was to place a portable altar, also known as an altar stone in the mensa or on top of wooden altars. Usually the altar had an area in the front center of the altar which was cut out and fit to hold the altar stone. Since Mass was/is offered on the altar stone and not on the rest of the (wooden, or non consecrated) mensa in the EF, it is usually raised just a millimeter or two above the wooden mensa so the priest can feel where the altar stone is placed and place the corporal accordingly.

The priest’s host and a greater part of the base of the chalice must be placed on the corporal above the altar stone when the entire mensa (of stone) is not consecrated, if several ciboria are consecrated and they cannot all fit on the corporal, it is permitted to have them on a separate corporal placed to either side of the corporal that the priest’s host and chalice rest.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top