Guidelines for spousal nudity vs. marital chastity?

[Mattapoisett64]

What degree of being unclothed around each other is permitted to spouses before it becomes a sin against marital chastity? Assume that spouses can be unclothed during the marital act, although I’ve never seen this in writing. But what about incidental situations not related to the marriage debt, such as changing clothes in front of each other, sleeping in skimpy nightwear (or none at all), or even showering together? I’m currently bed confined due to surgery, and my wife has been washing me, but I was wondering if morality required that we get a male home health aide, as bed baths require me to be unclothed not in the context of the marriage act.

 

[ForwardProgress]

You CANT be serious…

 

[Leopard]

What degree of being unclothed around each other is permitted to spouses before it becomes a sin against marital chastity? Assume that spouses can be unclothed during the marital act, although I’ve never seen this in writing. But what about incidental situations not related to the marriage debt, such as changing clothes in front of each other, sleeping in skimpy nightwear (or none at all), or even showering together? I’m currently bed confined due to surgery, and my wife has been washing me, but I was wondering if morality required that we get a male home health aide, as bed baths require me to be unclothed not in the context of the marriage act.

All the situations you have mentioned are permissible for one or both spouses to be nude in each other’s presence. None are sinful. To the contrary, your wife’s care for you in bathing you when you can not bathe yourself is a corporal work of mercy and therefore virtuous. I hope you are up and around soon.

 

[Cluny]

As one old priest said about such matters, “Your body is her body. Her body is your body. What’s the problem?”

 

[aspawloski4th]

And to think I thought Jansenism was stamped out in the church. I guess not.

 

[mommybug47]

As one old priest said about such matters, “Your body is her body. Her body is your body. What’s the problem?”

We are made in the image ond likeness of God, our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, Just be as loivng and respectful to each other as you aould be to God.

There is some good stuff in the Catechism #2331-2372, 2360 says in part "Im Marriage the physicall intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and a pledge of spiritual Communication…intamacy is not just “the Marriage Bed” but a knowing on a very deep and personal way, thoughts and body.
Hope it helps, share and love one another!

I think a male nurse would be an intrusion into your marital union. In the hospital or nursing home you would have a female nurse most likely. Your wife best protects the sacred bond of your marriage.

 

[StCsDavid]

A little more charity for the OP is in order. It’s a good question and appeared to be asked sincerely. IMHO, there’s nothing wrong with being in one’s birthday suit in front of one’s spouse; however, there’s never anything wrong with a little modesty.

There was a time, early 1900s, when it was considered a sign of disrespect towards one’s wife to show up at the breakfast table unkempt. We might laugh at that, today, but that only shows how far we’ve devolved as a culture. While that period of history had its moral problems as well, they were nothing like the level of normalized depravity we experience, today, in part because of their adherence to a high expectation of treating people with dignity and respect.

 

[graceandglory]

What degree of being unclothed around each other is permitted to spouses before it becomes a sin against marital chastity? Assume that spouses can be unclothed during the marital act, although I’ve never seen this in writing. But what about incidental situations not related to the marriage debt, such as changing clothes in front of each other, sleeping in skimpy nightwear (or none at all), or even showering together? I’m currently bed confined due to surgery, and my wife has been washing me, but I was wondering if morality required that we get a male home health aide, as bed baths require me to be unclothed not in the context of the marriage act.

I can’t think of many things that would be more loving than caring for a sick spouse. Has your wife mentioned that she can’t control her lust while washing you?

Christ said that lust is in our hearts, and that even spouses are not to burn with concupiscence for one another. You can read more about being “Naked Without Shame” from Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. I think the answers to your question here would be found in Christopher West’s “Good News for Sex and Marriage.”

Adam and Eve, when they walked with God, and had not yet turned their back on God, were naked without shame in the garden. They were naked even when it wasn’t the context of the marital act. That was God’s Original Plan before Original Sin. To be Naked Without Shame.

 

[Caesar517]

What degree of being unclothed around each other is permitted to spouses before it becomes a sin against marital chastity? Assume that spouses can be unclothed during the marital act, although I’ve never seen this in writing. But what about incidental situations not related to the marriage debt, such as changing clothes in front of each other, sleeping in skimpy nightwear (or none at all), or even showering together? I’m currently bed confined due to surgery, and my wife has been washing me, but I was wondering if morality required that we get a male home health aide, as bed baths require me to be unclothed not in the context of the marriage act.

There’s nothing wrong with any of this.

 

[manualman]

OP should read “Good News About Sex & Marriage” for a more complete understanding of human sexuality and the full expression of it in marriage.

 

[Mattapoisett64]

And to think I thought Jansenism was stamped out in the church. I guess not.

As the OP, I feel I need to justify my question. I used to be far more comfortable with marital sexuality issues, but frankly, reading this Forum for some time has shown me that others have questioned the morality of things I never questioned before–things like whether foreplay is morally acceptable; whether you can kiss your wife passionately in the morning before leaving for work; whether you can give your wife a “friendly pat” apart from performing the full Act; there was even a recent thread questioning the morality of lingerie when only your husband would see you. Made me feel like a moral slug for assuming all these were OK in marriage. So now I’m afraid to assume much of anything about marital morality. I didn’t used to be a Jansienist, but maybe I’ve accidentally become one.

 

[bilop]

As the OP, I feel I need to justify my question. I used to be far more comfortable with marital sexuality issues, but frankly, reading this Forum for some time has shown me that others have questioned the morality of things I never questioned before–things like whether foreplay is morally acceptable; whether you can kiss your wife passionately in the morning before leaving for work; whether you can give your wife a “friendly pat” apart from performing the full Act; there was even a recent thread questioning the morality of lingerie when only your husband would see you. Made me feel like a moral slug for assuming all these were OK in marriage. So now I’m afraid to assume much of anything about marital morality. I didn’t used to be a Jansienist, but maybe I’ve accidentally become one.

Unfortunately, people on this forum can tend to the extremes, i.e. “absolutely everything is permitted between married couples” or " only intercourse and you shouldn’t really enjoy it".

Neither is true. Of course, there are only a couple of the latter type.

I echo the suggestion to get a copy of Christopher West’s book, “The Good News about Sex and Marriage”. It has the Nihil Obstat from Archbishop Chaput, who is as orthodox as they come.

The true Catholic teachings on married sexuality are actually not very restrictive at all.

God Bless

 

[Seatuck]

As the OP, I feel I need to justify my question. I used to be far more comfortable with marital sexuality issues, but frankly, reading this Forum for some time has shown me that others have questioned the morality of things I never questioned before–things like whether foreplay is morally acceptable; whether you can kiss your wife passionately in the morning before leaving for work; whether you can give your wife a “friendly pat” apart from performing the full Act; there was even a recent thread questioning the morality of lingerie when only your husband would see you. Made me feel like a moral slug for assuming all these were OK in marriage. So now I’m afraid to assume much of anything about marital morality. I didn’t used to be a Jansienist, but maybe I’ve accidentally become one.

Glad you clarified. Listen, God created Adam and Eve and allowed them to be naked without any shame in the garden. He doesn’t seem to have a problem with it. Why should anyone else? Don’t allow yourself to get scrupulous about this.

Along with the book previously mentioned you can read Holy Sex by Greg Popcak or Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla ( the previous pope) if you want to straighten out your thinking. Don’t get scrupulous about this topic.

Another resource is a very cheap CD set titled Naked Without Shame by Christopher West.

 

[Non_sum_dignus]

As the OP, I feel I need to justify my question. I used to be far more comfortable with marital sexuality issues, but frankly, reading this Forum for some time has shown me that others have questioned the morality of things I never questioned before–things like whether foreplay is morally acceptable; whether you can kiss your wife passionately in the morning before leaving for work; whether you can give your wife a “friendly pat” apart from performing the full Act; there was even a recent thread questioning the morality of lingerie when only your husband would see you. Made me feel like a moral slug for assuming all these were OK in marriage. So now I’m afraid to assume much of anything about marital morality. I didn’t used to be a Jansienist, but maybe I’ve accidentally become one.

There’s some good discussion around here, but the Magisterium, we ain’t. Recalibrating your marriage because someone questions the morality of lingerie would be a bit rash.

 

[lizaanne]

There’s some good discussion around here, but the Magisterium, we ain’t. Recalibrating your marriage because someone questions the morality of lingerie would be a bit rash.

EXACTLY!!

I would warn anyone who makes any major life changing decisions based on what they see on an internet forum - ANY internet forum - to really make sure they think outside the (computer) box first. Life is what happens when you step away from the computer. Be sure to speak with REAL people, and not folks on the internet about truly serious issues/questions such as this before really considering changing your life.

Sometimes I think forums need to have a disclaimer: “for entertainment purposes only”

~Liza

 

[JG77]

I would say that there is no problem unless any of those situations become near occasions of sin for either of you, i.e. lust. You are right by asking about chastity in marriage becasue we would be lying to ourselves if we said that there was no expected degree of purity for married couples.

 

[turtle18]

The Catholic Church does expect you to be chaste within marriage. By being chaste, that means not to use your spouse as an object for your sexual gratification. Nothing you have mentioned would even come close to crossing that line.

Your wife could be fully clothed and you could still potentially treat her as an object for your sexual gratification. For example, if you wanted to dress her up in a sexy outfit and then take her out in public with the purpose of showing off your sexy, fit wife to all your co-workers to envoke jealousy, then that would probably be considered making your spouse an object for sexual gratification.

Bathing, taking care of each other while sick, or even giving a “love pat” doesn’t even meet anything close to this definition. In fact I would think that would all fall within the normal bounds of marriage fun and/or taking care of each other.

I guess with lingerie it would depend on whether your wife wanted to wear it or not. Some women it makes them feel sexy and therefore more able to perform for their husbands. Or some women like it because they think it hides flaws on their naked bodies. But some women do find it demeaning I guess so in those types of situations it might be best not to wear it.

 

[Newbie2]

As the OP, I feel I need to justify my question. I used to be far more comfortable with marital sexuality issues, but frankly, reading this Forum for some time has shown me that others have questioned the morality of things I never questioned before–things like whether foreplay is morally acceptable; whether you can kiss your wife passionately in the morning before leaving for work; whether you can give your wife a “friendly pat” apart from performing the full Act; there was even a recent thread questioning the morality of lingerie when only your husband would see you. Made me feel like a moral slug for assuming all these were OK in marriage. So now I’m afraid to assume much of anything about marital morality. I didn’t used to be a Jansienist, but maybe I’ve accidentally become one.

You can take much of the discussion on the “details” of sexuality, in terms of the moral acceptability of such things, that are discussed on this forum with a relative grain of salt. Some people think that Puritanical standards should apply to everyone. It’s pretty much your business how you go about things in your marriage and home, again referring to such things as what you’ve mentioned.

That being said, treating each other as objects is outside what married love is all about. You shouldn’t worry about what anonymous forumites post here about what you should or should not be doing. If you’re in doubt about something specific or such things in general, have a chat with your priest or if you have a married deacon in the parish, he’d be a much better resource.

 

[lizaanne]

You know - I was thinking about this discussion last night, and I had some comments to add.

There are times when couples who are practicing NFP DO need to be very chaste. And during those times I think it is very prudent to avoid situations where you might tempt your spouse to near occasion of sin, or even by making them feel guilty by teasing (even if meant in the best of ways), or causing tension in the marriage. Appearing in tempting sexy lingerie when you can’t have sex would be almost cruel I would think.

Now clearly that is not the case with the OP, but in the broader context of chastity within marriage, there is a time and a place, especially for those who for whatever reason must abstain from sex.

~Liza