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fall_fox
Guest
I would appreciate a comment on my quote on the thread “remnants of original sin after baptism” : fall fox # 6
Thank You,
Mike
Thank You,
Mike
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Hecares
Guest
Even though original sin is removed by the grace of baptism, we are left with an inclination to sin as a result of the original sin. This makes us weaker, more vulnerable to sinning. I don’t know much French, so the term “rancour” is lost on me.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8615880&postcount=6
From the action of your priest in defending the “Adam an Eve” line later – I’m going to presume that you misunderstood something he said – or reached an inference that didn’t follow from what he said.
The final form of Genesis was shaped in the Babylonian captivity, YES!, but that doesn’t mean its entirety comes from Babylon. The fact that Genesis is attributed to Moses means that it was known in part before the time of Babylonian captivity.
There are elements of a story in Genesis which are in direct reaction to a Babylonian Flood story called the Enuma Elish. However, don’t think just because there are reactive political elements in the Story of Genesis – that Genesis itself becomes free of all rules of reality. Genesis is history with STORY elements emphasized; but it is not a mere story.
I like to compare Genesis to the song “Yankee Doodle” and “ring around the rosies” which bear some useful teaching similarities;
Yankee dodle is NOT just a nursery rhyme, any more than “ring around the rosies” we all fall “DEAD” is. The former is American history regarding the revolutionary war; The latter is British/UK history concerning the black plague and how children are to identify it. At the time, the theory of miasma (sickness stench) was in vogue – but none the less – people still knew that those who were around others who formed black rings around the eyes would themselves soon die of the plague.
Just so, a historian who teaches these rhymes to their children may also inform them of the history which brought them into existence. And a history of either of our countries (UK or USA) which tells us these rhymes/songs are credible witnesses to what people actually heard and did in those days; is TRUE and correct history. However, without the historical background – the meaning can be lost to the average listener.
In political circles, it is not inconceivable that a modern author might use Yankee Doodle against a firgure like “Bill Clintion” changing part of the song to reflect the Monica Lewinski incident. If they understood the background of each, they could even be making a comparison between what was mockery made unwisely in the revolutionary war, vs. what was mockery in general in an embarrassing presidency.
To understand Genesis and what can be drawn from it historically; requires more than just the text itself – it requires understanding the potential meanings that people of that time would have attributed to symbols found in it.
Adam (Whatever his real name might have been) did something which interfered with God plan for Adam’s children and left them in a state which can not do God’s will. Baptism makes it possible for children (and later adults) to do God’s will fully again. But making something possible is not the same as automatically making it happen for all time. Baptism and Eucharist are a process of growing gradually into the fullness of what God desires man to be. They are not the conferring, all at once, and without interaction of the recipient (the conferring of) the totality of what man is to be in God’s desires. Man is formed by baptism and Eucharist over time and through the obedience of faith into what God desires and man is WILLING to cooperate with.
Just so, man is free from the permanent captivity of the Devil and his death at the moment of baptism; but is not freed from combat and wounding by the devil until man becomes fully immune through the grace of God to temptation. These latter evils are often spoken of as if they were part of the man himself – concupisence – when in reality; it is merely that man, although cleaned at baptism and whose conscience is pointed in the right direction, has to be entirely and perpetually filled by God in order to defend himself from possession and destruction by the devil.
Man is a composite creature; we have a brain (for example) that is experimentally splittable into independent left and right halves; But they are designed to work TOGETHER as one person. We as human men are designed to be in communion with wives even if many of us were damaged by the sin of our parents to the point of being unworthy of marrying. None the less, man is meant to be a “part” of a union in many ways; and a union with God is analogical to man being part of a union in marriage. Anyone who has experienced a good marriage, their own – or the example of someone else’s – can usually understand that marriages grow and mature over time. Just so, baptism and faith also mature over time.
If one’s parents were only Adam and Eve, then we would inherit only what they gave us; but there are even sins that our parents can commit which damage the children: Drugs, verbal abuse, physical abuse, rape, incest, etc. all damage us and often hamper both our physical and spiritual recovery. The devil exploits weaknesses. Abuse begets abuse. It is a cycle that has to be broken and actively un-learned by willing and Good willing people.
I hope this is helpful to you in gaining a bit of a wider perspective on what you have encountered in church teaching and what kinds of things to think about when reading the teaching of the church on these subjects.
Your brother in Christ,
–Andrew.
From the action of your priest in defending the “Adam an Eve” line later – I’m going to presume that you misunderstood something he said – or reached an inference that didn’t follow from what he said.
The final form of Genesis was shaped in the Babylonian captivity, YES!, but that doesn’t mean its entirety comes from Babylon. The fact that Genesis is attributed to Moses means that it was known in part before the time of Babylonian captivity.
There are elements of a story in Genesis which are in direct reaction to a Babylonian Flood story called the Enuma Elish. However, don’t think just because there are reactive political elements in the Story of Genesis – that Genesis itself becomes free of all rules of reality. Genesis is history with STORY elements emphasized; but it is not a mere story.
I like to compare Genesis to the song “Yankee Doodle” and “ring around the rosies” which bear some useful teaching similarities;
Yankee dodle is NOT just a nursery rhyme, any more than “ring around the rosies” we all fall “DEAD” is. The former is American history regarding the revolutionary war; The latter is British/UK history concerning the black plague and how children are to identify it. At the time, the theory of miasma (sickness stench) was in vogue – but none the less – people still knew that those who were around others who formed black rings around the eyes would themselves soon die of the plague.
Just so, a historian who teaches these rhymes to their children may also inform them of the history which brought them into existence. And a history of either of our countries (UK or USA) which tells us these rhymes/songs are credible witnesses to what people actually heard and did in those days; is TRUE and correct history. However, without the historical background – the meaning can be lost to the average listener.
In political circles, it is not inconceivable that a modern author might use Yankee Doodle against a firgure like “Bill Clintion” changing part of the song to reflect the Monica Lewinski incident. If they understood the background of each, they could even be making a comparison between what was mockery made unwisely in the revolutionary war, vs. what was mockery in general in an embarrassing presidency.
To understand Genesis and what can be drawn from it historically; requires more than just the text itself – it requires understanding the potential meanings that people of that time would have attributed to symbols found in it.
Adam (Whatever his real name might have been) did something which interfered with God plan for Adam’s children and left them in a state which can not do God’s will. Baptism makes it possible for children (and later adults) to do God’s will fully again. But making something possible is not the same as automatically making it happen for all time. Baptism and Eucharist are a process of growing gradually into the fullness of what God desires man to be. They are not the conferring, all at once, and without interaction of the recipient (the conferring of) the totality of what man is to be in God’s desires. Man is formed by baptism and Eucharist over time and through the obedience of faith into what God desires and man is WILLING to cooperate with.
Just so, man is free from the permanent captivity of the Devil and his death at the moment of baptism; but is not freed from combat and wounding by the devil until man becomes fully immune through the grace of God to temptation. These latter evils are often spoken of as if they were part of the man himself – concupisence – when in reality; it is merely that man, although cleaned at baptism and whose conscience is pointed in the right direction, has to be entirely and perpetually filled by God in order to defend himself from possession and destruction by the devil.
Man is a composite creature; we have a brain (for example) that is experimentally splittable into independent left and right halves; But they are designed to work TOGETHER as one person. We as human men are designed to be in communion with wives even if many of us were damaged by the sin of our parents to the point of being unworthy of marrying. None the less, man is meant to be a “part” of a union in many ways; and a union with God is analogical to man being part of a union in marriage. Anyone who has experienced a good marriage, their own – or the example of someone else’s – can usually understand that marriages grow and mature over time. Just so, baptism and faith also mature over time.
If one’s parents were only Adam and Eve, then we would inherit only what they gave us; but there are even sins that our parents can commit which damage the children: Drugs, verbal abuse, physical abuse, rape, incest, etc. all damage us and often hamper both our physical and spiritual recovery. The devil exploits weaknesses. Abuse begets abuse. It is a cycle that has to be broken and actively un-learned by willing and Good willing people.
I hope this is helpful to you in gaining a bit of a wider perspective on what you have encountered in church teaching and what kinds of things to think about when reading the teaching of the church on these subjects.
Your brother in Christ,
–Andrew.
- Status