Guitars at Mass?

  • Thread starter Thread starter curtishouse29
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
On a scale of 1 to 10, where does the guitar rate as an instrument for leading congregational singing?
I think it depends on the cantor.

An instrument cannot lead singing, it can only accompany. Even the magnificent pipe organ cannot lead singing. An instrument FOLLOWS the singers (ideally, the cantor), not the other way around.

I think that if the cantor is good, then the guitar rates up there with piano and organ. It is harder to pick out parts when a guitar is used, but the last time I heard ANYONE in Catholic Mass singing a part other than melody was when I did it two weeks ago. In other words, Catholic congregations seem to have no clue that there are parts other than “soprano,” and since many of us are not soprano, many Catholics do not even bother to try to sing or even open the hymnal and read the words to themselves.

Of course, maybe they are protesting the “Protestant” hymns and thus, remaining dumb.
 
On a scale of 1 to 10, where does the guitar rate as an instrument for leading congregational singing?
I would rate it at a “eight”, right behind the pipe organ at “ten” and in lieu of a pipe organ, a decent electric organ at “nine”.
 
The Vatican II document on the liturgy reminded everyone that sacred music needs to be kept as the liturgical music of the Mass.

Guitars are not proper instruments for the vertical worship of God in the sacrafice of the Mass. Organs should be the predominant instrument for the choirs.

The Church has 2,000 years of history of real sacred music. Gregorian Chant needs to be the music of liturgy.

I like acoustic guitars for entertainment, burt to play them in the sacred Mass is vulgar.

Proper music for Mass is supposed sacred and for worshipping God and not for entertainment, feelings, emotional highs, or getting you to move in dance.
 
Zenit reported on November 16, 2005:
The Mass is a moment of reflection and encounter with God, rather than a form of entertainment, says Cardinal Francis Arinze.
In an interview with Inside the Vatican magazine, the prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments made a comprehensive assessment of the recent Synod of Bishops on the Eucharist and of developments in liturgical practice 40 years after the Second Vatican Council.
Regarding “music in the liturgy, we should start by saying that Gregorian music is the Church’s precious heritage,” he said. “It should stay. It should not be banished. If therefore in a particular diocese or country, no one hears Gregorian music anymore, then somebody has made a mistake somewhere.”
However, “the Church is not saying that everything should be Gregorian music,” the cardinal clarified. "There is room for music which respects that language, that culture, that people. There is room for that too, and the present books say that is a matter for the bishops’ conference, because it generally goes beyond the boundaries of one diocese.
“The ideal thing is that the bishops would have a liturgical music commission which looks at the wording and the music of the hymns. And when the commission is satisfied, judgment is brought to the bishops for approval, in the name of the rest of the conference.”
What should not be the case, insists the Nigerian cardinal, is "individuals just composing anything and singing it in church. This is not right at all – no matter how talented the individual is. That brings us to the question of the instruments to be used.
“The local church should be conscious that church worship is not really the same as what we sing in a bar, or what we sing in a convention for youth. Therefore it should influence the type of instrument used, the type of music used.”
"I will not now pronounce and say never guitar; that would be rather severe," Cardinal Arinze added. “But much of guitar music may not be suitable at all for the Mass. Yet, it is possible to think of some guitar music that would be suitable, not as the ordinary one we get every time, [but with] the visit of a special group, etc.”
 
…Catholic congregations seem to have no clue that there are parts other than “soprano,” and since many of us are not soprano, many Catholics do not even bother to try to sing or even open the hymnal and read the words to themselves.
What you say is true. The question I would ask is, should it be a goal that Catholics sing hymns in parts? Is this something that ideally would be on the “fix-it” list?
Of course, maybe they are protesting the “Protestant” hymns and thus, remaining dumb.
Now behave. 🙂
 
From *Sacrosanctum Concilium: *
  1. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.
But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only** on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful**.
 
From *Sacrosanctum Concilium: *
  1. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.
But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only** on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful**.
Yes, on all counts. Too bad nobody (including me) seems to know what it means for an instrument to be suitable, or be made suitable.

I think it’s a mistake to argue against guitars, rock Masses, etc. I think what needs to be done, rather, is to argue for the ideal, as much as possible, for at least one Mass each Sunday in every parish. And the ideal is to sing the actual texts of the Mass, set to music that is true art.
 
Yes, on all counts. Too bad nobody (including me) seems to know what it means for an instrument to be suitable, or be made suitable.

I think it’s a mistake to argue against guitars, rock Masses, etc. I think what needs to be done, rather, is to argue for the ideal, as much as possible, for at least one Mass each Sunday in every parish. And the ideal is to sing the actual texts of the Mass, set to music that is true art.
And to that I would agree, but I personally think that Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring played in a classical manner on a guitar is EQUALLY suitable, appropriate and edifying as it would be if played on a pipe organ (though it would certainly be quieter) and further, that it would certainly BE better than “On This Day, O Beautiful Mother” (some people confuse “old” with “good”) played on a pipe organ at ANY time.

Further, I think it would do for all of us to remember that *Sacrosanctum Concilium *is not addressing a matter of faith and morals. It is not addressing the deposit of the faith. It is not, therefore, infallible and can only firmly be said to at least not lead the faithful into impiety. We owe it obedience, but it itself seems to grant leeway in decisions about what instruments may be played at Mass. It leaves a lot to the prudential judgement of the hierarchs. What we need to do is pray that they use that prudential wisdom. I’d be the first to agree that a lot do not seem to be doing so.
 
I’m not aware of any ordinary instruments that are “forbidden” in Mass. A lot of churches use acoustic guitars for at least one Mass on Sunday, and often a Sunday Evening Mass which immediately precedes “youth group” meetings will have electric guitars.

That being said, acoustic guitars have been used for several decades and are a pleasant accompaniment most anywhere. Whether it is Catholic/reverent or not depends on the song selection.

Electric guitars are another animal, particularly when accompanied by drums. For a youth revival mass, offered in a stadium setting, they can work nicely. The biggest problems are that most churches are not acoustically designed for electric guitars, and that drumsets don’t have a “low” volume setting. The amplifiers and drum flourishes obliterate the singers’ voices.
 
Thank you, Nan, 👍

I am so deathly sick and tired of people who think of guitars at Mass as if they were pentagrammed devil worshiping equipment! Frankly, anyone “deeply disturbed” at seeing guitars played at Mass is deeply disturbed, only not in the way they may think.

For 35 years, I have played my 12 string at probably several thousand Sunday Masses, healing Masses, prayer meetings, prayer services, Penance Services, and retreats. I do not play heavy metal, but mostly contemporary liturgical music with some “golden oldies” (such as “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name,” “Immaculate Mary”, etc.) mixed in. I have played as a volunteer and as a paid member of the music staff.

I have never had any complaints since I always follow the rubrics. What I have always received were compliments - compliments on my voice (which is my primary instrument), my guitar, my choice of songs… to all of which my response has always been and will always be: “Thank you, but you must really thank God because anything I have comes from Him.”

What gives me cause to rejoice, however, is how very, very many people in my lifetime have come to me with tears in their eyes and have shared how my music has helped them to pray.

Not once has anyone been “deeply disturbed.”

As to why I responded:

People with the “deeply disturbed” attitude of the OP, and those with the Christoper M’s attitude (“I must say you have been very lucky to never encounter a guitar mass, and yes they are very common. They are a left over reminder from the 70’s I suppose as I was born in 1984.”) only do a disservice to HMC by posting so controversially (not to mention the pride with which they do so – obviously, one born in 1984 knows so much more than those of us who have been leading music with guitars while they were still pooping in their pants!).
 
Thank you, Nan, 👍

I am so deathly sick and tired of people who think of guitars at Mass as if they were pentagrammed devil worshiping equipment! Frankly, anyone “deeply disturbed” at seeing guitars played at Mass is deeply disturbed, only not in the way they may think.

For 35 years, I have played my 12 string at probably several thousand Sunday Masses, healing Masses, prayer meetings, prayer services, Penance Services, and retreats. I do not play heavy metal, but mostly contemporary liturgical music with some “golden oldies” (such as “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name,” “Immaculate Mary”, etc.) mixed in. I have played as a volunteer and as a paid member of the music staff.

I think the guitar is a beautiful instrument. However, I’ve never heard them used at a TLM. They have their place… picnic, dance, concerts etc. Not at my TLM/

I have never had any complaints since I always follow the rubrics. What I have always received were compliments - compliments on my voice (which is my primary instrument), my guitar, my choice of songs… to all of which my response has always been and will always be: “Thank you, but you must really thank God because anything I have comes from Him.”

What gives me cause to rejoice, however, is how very, very many people in my lifetime have come to me with tears in their eyes and have shared how my music has helped them to pray.

Not once has anyone been “deeply disturbed.”

As to why I responded:

People with the “deeply disturbed” attitude of the OP, and those with the Christoper M’s attitude (“I must say you have been very lucky to never encounter a guitar mass, and yes they are very common. They are a left over reminder from the 70’s I suppose as I was born in 1984.”) only do a disservice to HMC by posting so controversially (not to mention the pride with which they do so – obviously, one born in 1984 knows so much more than those of us who have been leading music with guitars while they were still pooping in their pants!).
 
I think it’s a mistake to argue against guitars, rock Masses, etc. I think what needs to be done, rather, is to argue for the ideal, as much as possible, for at least one Mass each Sunday in every parish. And the ideal is to sing the actual texts of the Mass, set to music that is true art.
👍

Excellent commentary!
 
The fonts are provided, we may as well use them. There is no such thing as an “abnormal” font.
I suppose you’re right. I just get easily distracted by such things, that’s all. But it is a form of art and it does say something about a person if he or she deviates from the norm, right? 😉

Now that I said that, watch, everyone will use the comic font now. 😃
 
Yes, on all counts. Too bad nobody (including me) seems to know what it means for an instrument to be suitable, or be made suitable.

I think it’s a mistake to argue against guitars, rock Masses, etc. I think what needs to be done, rather, is to argue for the ideal, as much as possible, for at least one Mass each Sunday in every parish. And the ideal is to sing the actual texts of the Mass, set to music that is true art.
You’re right, nothing wrong with using guitars at Mass. But I think you’ll find more people sing to the organ than any other instrument. I go to enough baseball games to know that. 🙂
 
You’re right, nothing wrong with using guitars at Mass. But I think you’ll find more people sing to the organ than any other instrument.** I go to enough baseball games to know that**. 🙂
Harry Caray would be proud. 👍
 
I think guitars should be in mass…and by the way what’s wrong with the “Lord I lift your name on high?” Those are beautiful songs, I don’t think of that music as “protestant” music, I think of it as christian music, and we are christian…at my church one mass we had a saxaphone it was great. I think it is good to use instraments…I am traditional, but come on are you really going to grip on a guitar. God gave those people a gift and that is playing guitar, and they are playing God’s music and trying to make it beautiful…and I don’t think God minds.
 
I think guitars should be in mass…and by the way what’s wrong with the “Lord I lift your name on high?” Those are beautiful songs, I don’t think of that music as “protestant” music, I think of it as christian music, and we are christian…at my church one mass we had a saxaphone it was great. I think it is good to use instraments…I am traditional, but come on are you really going to grip on a guitar. God gave those people a gift and that is playing guitar, and they are playing God’s music and trying to make it beautiful…and I don’t think God minds.
Just curious, is there any instrument you do not think is suitable for Mass? Is there any style of music you do not think is suitable for Mass?

And if not, why not?
 
It seems that there are many on here who disagree with me and actually like more contemporary music added to Mass but it also seems that some are confused about what actually took place at this Mass. I am including a link to the Mass that was shown on YouTube and you can see for yourself. The guitar playing happens within the first few minutes. After viewing, please tell me if your view has changed whatsoever. Thanks for the replies. I wake up and there is 30+ responses. Thank for you all for responding whether you agree or disagree with my position. God bless.

Curtis

youtube.com/watch?v=ZGcoQbCopuE
 
It seems that there are many on here who disagree with me and actually like more contemporary music added to Mass but it also seems that some are confused about what actually took place at this Mass. I am including a link to the Mass that was shown on YouTube and you can see for yourself. The guitar playing happens within the first few minutes. After viewing, please tell me if your view has changed whatsoever. Thanks for the replies. I wake up and there is 30+ responses. Thank for you all for responding whether you agree or disagree with my position. God bless.

Curtis

youtube.com/watch?v=ZGcoQbCopuE
OK, I took a look. Again, I don’t think the problem is the guitars. The problem is that most of what they sang was not the texts of the Mass, and that most of the music was not true art. On top of that, they didn’t sing the Lord Have Mercy, Glory to God, Creed or Our Father. It is completely unacceptable to recite those parts of the Mass while singing hymns at other times during the Mass. Check Musicam Sacram (1967) if you don’t believe me.

So,
  • They didn’t sing most of the Ordinary of the Mass
  • What they did sing was mostly not the texts of the Mass
  • The music was mostly not, I think it’s safe to say, “true art”
The guitars were the very least of the problems with the music at this Mass.
 
Ah. I watched that first few minutes.

That Mass–several guitar players, the music itself, the singing style. . .I have seen and indeed 😊 participated in myself over 30 years ago as a teen, and the format/style has been the same for nearly 40 years in many if not most Catholic Churches.

Now --before you get out the flame throwers --some people absolutely** love** this music. Not all of them are ‘oldies’ like me (50) who grew up at a time when this was ‘new’ music.

IMO – so please don’t think I’m stating this as dogma – there are some people, perhaps many people, who like a musical style which contains elements of ‘folk’, ‘pop’, ‘glory and praise’, ‘gospel’, a music style which is often felt to be more ‘intimate’, more ‘simple’, more ‘down-to-earth’ etc.

The 60s (I was very young but I did live through them) introduced Peter, Paul, and Mary for example in the ‘folk’ style that had, admittedly, been around 20-30 years or so (think Arlo, father of Woody, Guthrie) which had evolved from Appalachian and other roots. Kum-ba-yah is part of this strain. Very ‘granola’, very ‘back to nature’, often ‘countercultura’, often praised for being so simple it is ‘deep’ etc. That’s why you can find people born 30 years after this was among the POP sensations (60s) who are still drawn to the style. As somebody who lived through pre- and post Vatican 2 (and all the ‘secular’ goings on including 1968, Martin Luther King, even very ‘young’ memories of Kennedy’s assassination) and with a sister 5 years my senior, believe me I heard everything from the Stones to Dylan to the Beatles to PPM and then some in the 60s.

The music we began to have in the very late 60s and 70s in our churches could have been–and indeed was–played on the radio, as ‘entertainment’, as totally ‘secular’ music. Simon and Garfunkle? Anne Murray? The Beatles? We would go from playing the records (and the 8 track tapes, LOL) at home or in our cars and walk into church where we would hear them, over amped, again, all through Mass.

The people writing some of the Church music of the time that was not lifted directly from the top 40 radio were often ‘respected’ musicians (Weston Priory, St. Louis Jesuits et. al.) but they were hampered in their creativity because they attempted to adjust themselves to something already there. They basically were writing not for the Church but for the genre that they were told was ‘expected’, that "the congregation wanted.’ Not surprising that the 60s style then really did not change. Many (not all) musicians writing for the Church are still writing 60s folk tunes, not ‘contemporary’ music at all. That is one reason why the Church to many a viewer seems to be ‘stuck in the 60s’.

Most of the ‘acts’ (secular) of the 60s either changed and adapted as music itself ‘changed’ in the 70s, 80s, 90s and beyond. Those who did not sound, in their reunion ‘concerts’ for the PBS crowds, as ‘dated’ as the vast majority of the “church music” we hear today.

Sure, many of the songs we sing were written in the 80s and 90s. But they have the same ‘folk’ ideas (simple words that are ‘deep’) and any musical changes are still decades old.

Ever hear Barry Manilow? Compare Barry’s songs (themselves arguably ‘folk’ or ballad in style) and his use of the ‘key change’ to indicate the ‘climax’ of the song’s message, with most of Haugen-Haas of the 80s and 90s. Lifted almost directly.

Now for those who like the style, fine. But this is not the only style of “Church music” that exists (anymore than the knee-jerk reaction of “Neither is slow organ music!” the ‘only style’ either).

For centuries we have had music that develops. In the last 40 decades, the vast majority of music has not developed’; it has stood firmly in the 60s. Time for a change. We keep good music–many of our hymns are centuries old, some less than 100 years–and we have had some hymns even of this troubling 40 years which deserve to be classic. Keep them. . .but let music–true sacred Church music–out of its 60s prison and into the 21st century. Let it develop naturally as it always had until the last generation; don’t keep it in an eternal time warp.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top