Gun Control & the Catholic Church

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The document he mentions just does not carry the same weight as, say, Church teaching on abortion or gay marriage or a host of other things.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is not a document worthy of consideration?

[2264](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2264.htm’)😉 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.66
 
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is not a document worthy of consideration?

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.66
Then I’ll be the judge of what is necessary to defend myself. While it may not be necessary for salvation to omit self defense it does not state that if one fails to properly defend himself he will perish in hell.
 
I propose we return to vern’s suggestion of a truce. I am still being attacked as though I am not a Catholic. I am. A disagreement on one little principle does not change that. This lack of wanting to defend myself is not grievous.
 
Some aspects of this issue are straightforward: there is nothing in Church teaching that either requires or forbids the use of guns for protection. That really is not the point that was initially raised, however, which was why do so many in the Church believe that our faith, “properly” understood, should lead us to forego them.

It is one thing to personally renounce the use of guns but quite another to denounce others for using them. Just as self defense is moral, so is self defense with the use of weapons, including guns.

Ender
 
I respect the right to own guns. I choose not to and I also choose not defend myself to the point of killing the attacker. I’m already a Christian and likely to be saved if a die in the attack. Whereas if he dies as an unbeliever he risks going straight to hell. At least in my scenario he has the option to repent and convert afterwards. I will not kill no matter what the cost.
 
I will not kill no matter what the cost.
The church doesn’t say you should. In fact, as a gun owner, I would hope that the simple presence of the gun would stop the attack and no harm at all would come to the attacker. According to some of the sources published by university studies, guns are used to prevent more crimes than they commit, and very few of those ‘encounters’ actually end up with the gun being fired.
 
The church doesn’t say you should. In fact, as a gun owner, I would hope that the simple presence of the gun would stop the attack and no harm at all would come to the attacker. According to some of the sources published by university studies, guns are used to prevent more crimes than they commit, and very few of those ‘encounters’ actually end up with the gun being fired.
I don’t ever expect to be in the situation. When the time comes if it is God’s will, I go. I’m not going to hide behind a gun. My trust is more in the sacramentals provided by the Church such as the brown scapular and the Miraculous Medal.
 
I don’t ever expect to be in the situation. When the time comes if it is God’s will, I go. I’m not going to hide behind a gun. My trust is more in the sacramentals provided by the Church such as the brown scapular and the Miraculous Medal.
For a moment forget guns, forget weapons, just set those aside.

Are you saying that you have so little regard for the sanctity of your own life that you are willing to defy the Catechist: **“it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life” **and simply allow yourself to be killed? Why not run away? Would that not also satisfy the teachings? What about this one: “**Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty”
**
I think we all understand you won’t kill. No problem, nobody asked you to do that. But will you at least protect yourself?
 
Let’s examine things a little. You say I am not obligated to carry a weapon. I certainly hope not because no matter who tells me to I will refuse. I am unable to run very fast so if I am attacked I will have no means of defense. I am also not a very good fighter. In my situation I must simply accept that if someone attacks me or points a gun at me and shoots it is my time to go.
It is hard to imagine what it would be like if attacked as I never have been in that situation. I would like to think that I would disable the attacker and not try to kill.
 
For a moment forget guns, forget weapons, just set those aside.

Are you saying that you have so little regard for the sanctity of your own life that you are willing to defy the Catechist: **“it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life” **and simply allow yourself to be killed? Why not run away? Would that not also satisfy the teachings? What about this one: "Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty"

I think we all understand you won’t kill. No problem, nobody asked you to do that. But will you at least protect yourself?
But apparently I am already disobeying this right by refusing to carry any weapons. I can run away but that won’t be too effective aginst a gunshot especially if I can’t run that fast due to health conditions.
 
But apparently I am already disobeying this right by refusing to carry any weapons. I can run away but that won’t be too effective aginst a gunshot especially if I can’t run that fast due to health conditions.
NO YOU ARE NOT.

What do you not understand about this whole discussion. NOBODY every claimed, stated, or implied that you MUST carry a weapon of some sort.

What has been stated is that you are obligated to defend yourself and your family in some way.

Further, you only seem to have a single minded obsession with defending yourself against a gun wielding criminal and seem to ignore those with knives, clubs, fists, tire irons or any other sundry of makeshift weapons.

Please. . . open your mind. At least a little bit.
 
NO YOU ARE NOT.

What do you not understand about this whole discussion. NOBODY every claimed, stated, or implied that you MUST carry a weapon of some sort.

What has been stated is that you are obligated to defend yourself and your family in some way.

Further, you only seem to have a single minded obsession with defending yourself against a gun wielding criminal and seem to ignore those with knives, clubs, fists, tire irons or any other sundry of makeshift weapons.

Please. . . open your mind. At least a little bit.
I have kept my mind open through this whole thread. I just disagree. And I preferred vern’s idea of a truce but it seems that if I abided by that it would be a one sided truce. Let’s agree to call this off. It’s going nowhere.
 
My Hubby doesn’t live by the sword.- But he does enjoy his gun collection. He has some vintage rifles from the Civil war up to the 1930’s and some hand guns. He goes to shooting sport competitions and it really is sport. My son was a cub scout and now is a boy scout. They have shooting sports in Scouts. BB gun for the little kids and rifle I think for the Boy Scouts. My son knows and respects guns. They aren’t a mystery. Safety is number one and my hubby is ultra ultra safe. He gets very upset sometimes with people at the gun range who may not hold to his high standard of safety. I’m a new Catholic. That would be a sticky subject if the church were to condem gun ownership. He believes it is a protected right of the constitution.
 
I’m a new Catholic. That would be a sticky subject if the church were to condem gun ownership. He believes it is a protected right of the constitution.
First, here in the US it is protected by the Constitution, which was just affirmed again as an “individual” right.

Second, the Vatican recognized the fact that gun ownership is legitimate.

Third, the Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly states that self defense is our responsibility, and that defending our families is a grave matter that is clearly necessary.

Still with all that, some of our Church leaders advocate very strict gun control policies, which is what started this thread. An article was cited in the first post that showed Catholics using information ONLY from a group known to support banning guns and distorting the facts to push for increased anti-gun legislation. Nothing in the Catholic Church writings that I can find supports an unfettered access to firearms, so there is room to debate what laws or restrictions are reasonable. However, that said, there is also plenty of room to educate those folks who take only one side and don’t look at the whole scope of the issue.

It is amazing to me how many often repeated lies have become accepted as true fact, especially when they have been refuted and proved wrong. However, when it comes to gun controls, it seems like the “NRA” is “always wrong” in the eyes of the press while the “Brady Campaign” is only asking for more “reasonable” controls. That one-sided approach is reason enough to question the “facts” presented by those who want to control guns.

In fact, look at a parallel with the pro-abortion folks. How does the press portray Christians versus how does the press portray the pro-choice crowd? What do you ever hear from the mainstream press about the emotional pain on the mother (or father) after the abortion? Etc.
 
Me. I just wear my brown scapular every day so if someone guns me down I trust the Blessed Mother’s promise that I won’t go to the fires of hell.
The only thing you should rely on is being in a state of Grace through frequent reception of the sacraments. A scapular is no substitute for Confession.

God Bless
 
I think Catholics are conservative people. Condoms, drugs, guns etc just don’t fit into the conservative culture.

Believe it or not, there are plently of people (including me) who believe that a community becomes more dangerous when there are more guns within it. (Yes, I am Australian.)
Actually guns fit very well into conservative culture. In fact thay are a conerstone of it. The second amendment of the U.S. constitution and all that…
 
“In a world marked by evil … the right of legitimate defence by means of arms exists. This right can become a serious duty for those who are responsible for the lives of others, for the common good of the family or of the civil community. This right alone can justify the possession or transfer of arms.” (Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, “The International Arms Trade: an Ethical Reflection” in Origins 8 (24), 7 July 1994, p. 144).
That same quotation was restated in a letter, on July 11, 2001, to the International Conference on Illicit Trade in Small Arms and Light Weapons in all its Aspects. I suspect that the same quotation, used twice, under the direction of the Vatican, should not be considered out of date.
Key word in that document is can. The right to self-defense can justify the possession or transfer of arms.

What the Vatican is saying (and rightfully so!) is that it is not ruling out a pro-gun stance; such a position could conceivably be correct.

Any suggestion that the standard, right-wing, paranoid, American notion of gun rights is the authoritative teaching of the universal Church is a rather pitiful attempt to equate the social teachings of our faith with our country’s culture of fear.

Besides, the Church doesn’t impose specific political ideas, for the most part. That’s part of how the Church in the modern world works - they don’t insist that they know which economic system or government works best. They stick to opposing obviously immoral things (like abortion), ruling out extremes (like communism), and leaving the rest up to others. They give us Christian principles, but don’t apply those principles for us.

Here’s a letter someone wrote in to Newsweek about the Virginia Tech massacre that sums up my views very well:
Only in America could a deranged young man walk into a gun shop and purchase a 9mm Glock 19 that can fire five rounds a second with a magazine that holds up to 33 hollow-point bullets to tear up internal organs and that can be reloaded in under two seconds. The NRA’s obsession with citing the constitutional right to bear firearms apparently overlooks the fact that at the time the Constitution was written it took more time to load a rifle than it takes a present-day gun to fire off 50 rounds. Such a gun has one purpose only: to kill people - as many and as quickly as possible.
All pro-gun rebuttals to arguments for strict gun control arguments spectacularly demonstrate the straw-man fallacy.

“Guns don’t kill people, people kill people” - No one claimed that the guns are morally responsible. The goal of strict gun control laws is not to “punish” the “guns” but to make killing people harder. It wouldn’t eliminate the causes of violent crime, but it would make things like what happened at Virginia Tech impossible while we work out long-term solutions to our country’s violence issues.

I’ve been to Australia and Europe. There’s a reason places like Italy have very little violent crime. There’s a reason the subways in London are much safer than those in New York City.

We wouldn’t need to protect ourselves against people with guns if they didn’t have the guns to begin with.

And the argument that “Criminals will just get and use guns anyway!” just doesn’t hold water when you actually compare places like the United States with Italy or Australia on this count.

What happened at Virginia Tech wouldn’t happen most places in Europe. Scream and call me horrible for trying to “manipulate a tragedy” if you want, but it’s a fact that demands political and ideological change for our country.
 
Key word in that document is can. The right to self-defense can justify the possession or transfer of arms.

What the Vatican is saying (and rightfully so!) is that it is not ruling out a pro-gun stance; such a position could conceivably be correct.

Any suggestion that the standard, right-wing, paranoid, American notion of gun rights is the authoritative teaching of the universal Church is a rather pitiful attempt to equate the social teachings of our faith with our country’s culture of fear.
True, the Church does not mandate guns, it allows for guns. I believe that has been stated many times very clearly in this thread.
All pro-gun rebuttals to arguments for strict gun control arguments spectacularly demonstrate the straw-man fallacy. . .

What happened at Virginia Tech wouldn’t happen most places in Europe. Scream and call me horrible for trying to “manipulate a tragedy” if you want, but it’s a fact that demands political and ideological change for our country.
What happened in Virginia should not have happened in Virginia and the NRA has pushed for laws that would have possibly prevented it. The NRA has been stifled by the political left here in the US when it has pushed to allow police background checks to dig into the mental medical history of purchasers. Current laws in most states do not permit that and the ACLU is actually the group with blood on their hands in this event. Further, some of his actions where only reported to campus security and not to police, which could have provided him with a formal criminal record. Fact of the matter is that Cho, who, in his rantings compared himself to Moses and Jesus, was insane. He should not have been allowed to buy a gun based on his mental history, but the police were not allowed access to it.

But the writer in the Newsweek article that you agree with blames the NRA, when it is actually the ACLU that allowed for this tragedy.
 
As long as criminals an politicians have access to guns, the American people will need them. We are not about to go the way of Nazi Germany. We need to go after these priests or bishops who are attempting to subvert our Civil Rights.

Maybe they are just in the wrong country. Perhaps they would be happier in Communist China, or Cuba or North Korea. Then they wouldn’t have to worry about private ownership of firearms.

Priests and bishops who advocate infringements of our Second Amendment Rights are in conflict with the historical teaching of the Catholic Church regarding self defense. We cannot allow them to dignify their arguments by the prestige of their office. We need to make an issue of this. We need to point out that these men have abandonded the historical Church teaching, and are teaching heresey.

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