Gun Control & the Catholic Church

[Brendan]

For me there’s a little line of scripture that sums it up - ‘those who live by the sword will die by the sword’. I just don’t see Jesus joining the pro-gun lobby with that attitude.

Really?

After all, He told Peter and the Apostles to sell their cloaks and buy swords.

 

[Brendan]

And yet Jesus never himself took up a sword nor permitted anyone else to use one in his defence.

That is because Jesus HAD to die to redeem mankind.

That’s not true for the rest of us. That is why Jesus told the Apostles to arm themselves before going out to preach the Gospel.

 

[goofyjim]

Why does it seem that the conservatives in America never allow room for any debate? There are many issues that are set in stone but ones such as this one are not and should not be.

 

[melensdad]

Why does it seem that the conservatives in America never allow room for any debate? There are many issues that are set in stone but ones such as this one are not and should not be.

If you don’t stand for your principles against the lies then what do you have to stand for? You admit that there are issues that are set in stone, but you deem that this is not one of them. Why? Why is your view on this topic more enlightened? Why is it not a basic human right to defend your life? In fact, the Vatican states it is your duty to defend your life and the lives of your loved ones. Do you suggest that we use sticks and stones?

 

[goofyjim]

If you don’t stand for your principles against the lies then what do you have to stand for? You admit that there are issues that are set in stone, but you deem that this is not one of them. Why? Why is your view on this topic more enlightened? Why is it not a basic human right to defend your life? In fact, the Vatican states it is your duty to defend your life and the lives of your loved ones. Do you suggest that we use sticks and stones?

Because my conscience tells me that here the Vatican is going against Gospel principles. The Vatican is telling me I have an “obligation” to have a gun? Where then is the martyrdom the Church so often expects of us? Regardless, I do not live in fear. I have not and never will own a gun. I refuse.

 

[melensdad]

Because my conscience tells me that here the Vatican is going against Gospel principles. The Vatican is telling me I have an “obligation” to have a gun? Where then is the martyrdom the Church so often expects of us? Regardless, I do not live in fear. I have not and never will own a gun. I refuse.

No the Vatican is not telling you that you are obliged to own a gun, it is saying it is your duty to defend your life and the lives of your family in the most appropriate way possible. It stated that small arms are often the appropriate tool to use.

You also seem very confused on the concept of martyrdom. To be a martyr you would die in the name of the Lord, defending him and his honor and the religion. To be beaten to death in your home, shot in a car jacking, etc, is not the road to martyrdom.

Further you completely omit the concept of the obligation to defend your own life, which is an obligation according to the Church.

You may choose not to own a gun, and I will support your right to not own one. However you do not know the situations and needs of others, where they live, what circumstances they face. To force them to live under your misunderstandings is not appropriate or ethical.

 

[mary_bobo]

Why does it seem that the conservatives in America never allow room for any debate? There are many issues that are set in stone but ones such as this one are not and should not be.

Big generalization, don’t you think? I refer you to the Constitution of the United States, Amendment 2.

 

[goofyjim]

Big generalization, don’t you think? I refer you to the Constitution of the United States, Amendment 2.

I refer to the Ten Commandments which were written in stone. The Constitution is a transitory document on paper which can always be amended in the future.

 

[goofyjim]

No the Vatican is not telling you that you are obliged to own a gun, it is saying it is your duty to defend your life and the lives of your family in the most appropriate way possible. It stated that small arms are often the appropriate tool to use.

You also seem very confused on the concept of martyrdom. To be a martyr you would die in the name of the Lord, defending him and his honor and the religion. To be beaten to death in your home, shot in a car jacking, etc, is not the road to martyrdom.

Further you completely omit the concept of the obligation to defend your own life, which is an obligation according to the Church.

You may choose not to own a gun, and I will support your right to not own one. However you do not know the situations and needs of others, where they live, what circumstances they face. To force them to live under your misunderstandings is not appropriate or ethical.

What about the unethical situation of those areas of the country which make it a mandate that everyone owns a gun?

 

[Brendan]

Because my conscience tells me that here the Vatican is going against Gospel principles.

Ah, you are now claiming to have a better understanding of the Gospel than the Church does. Interesting…

The Vatican is telling me I have an “obligation” to have a gun?

The Vatican is telling you that you have an obligation to defend you life, and the life of those under your care.

Where then is the martyrdom the Church so often expects of us?

Martyrdom is where we give up our own life for the sake of the Kingdom. The students at V Tech are not considered martyrs of the Church, as the were not killed simply because they were Christians or in the excercise of a Christian Virtue.

On the other hand, if you have a family and you allow them to be killed when you had the opportunity to defend them, THAT is a serious sin.

Regardless, I do not live in fear. I have not and never will own a gun. I refuse.

Suit yourself, if you don’t want to carry a gun, I have no issue with that.

But don’t complain if I do.

 

[Brendan]

I refer to the Ten Commandments which were written in stone. The Constitution is a transitory document on paper which can always be amended in the future.

OK here is the Church’s take on the 10 Commandments, specifically the 5th one.

Council of Trent on the 5th Commandment

If a man kill another in self-defence, having used every means consistent with his own safety to avoid the infliction of death, he evidently does not violate this Commandment.

cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tcomm05.htm

 

[melensdad]

I refer to the Ten Commandments which were written in stone.

And theological scholars believe that “kill” means “murder.” It also means that you must believe in the sanctity of life, one of which is your own life. Hence the Church’s positions on self defense, so-called mercy killing and on suicide. You are obligated to defend your own life, you are obligated provide care for the sick instead of “putting them out of ‘your’ misery” and you are obligated not to commit suicide, nor assist in it. I think you may want to read the fundamental Catholic beliefs.

 

[goofyjim]

Ah, you are now claiming to have a better understanding of the Gospel than the Church does. Interesting…

The Vatican is telling you that you have an obligation to defend you life, and the life of those under your care.

Martyrdom is where we give up our own life for the sake of the Kingdom. The students at V Tech are not considered martyrs of the Church, as the were not killed simply because they were Christians or in the excercise of a Christian Virtue.

On the other hand, if you have a family and you allow them to be killed when you had the opportunity to defend them, THAT is a serious sin.

Suit yourself, if you don’t want to carry a gun, I have no issue with that.

But don’t complain if I do.

So now you’re saying if I have a family that increases my obligation to carry a weapon? Still won’t do it.

 

[melensdad]

What about the unethical situation of those areas of the country which make it a mandate that everyone owns a gun?

What?

 

[Brendan]

So now you’re saying if I have a family that increases my obligation to carry a weapon? Still won’t do it.

No, I’m saying that you might be risking grave sin.

That is different from an obligation.

 

[goofyjim]

What?

While I cannot provide a reference right now, I recommend doing some research. There are those areas in the country, particularly the south, that require everyone, by law to own and be properly trained to operate a gun. This would be totally unethical as well.

 

[melensdad]

So now you’re saying if I have a family that increases my obligation to carry a weapon? Still won’t do it.

No. What part of this stuff do you not understand? You are not obligated to carry or own any weapon. Nobody said you are. However you are obligated to defend your life, your family and people around you. How you choose, or are able to do that, is up to you. Perhaps you are capable of defending yourself? Perhaps you are fast and can run away? You are twisting things to your own misguided end. However the Church states that it is your obligation to defend, and it the Church states that small arms are an appropriate choice. The Church does not suggest you carry a gun, club or broadsword. The Church does not suggest you take overwhelming or inappropriate force in a situation that does not demand it.

 

[melensdad]

While I cannot provide a reference right now, I recommend doing some research. There are those areas in the country, particularly the south, that require everyone, by law to own and be properly trained to operate a gun. This would be totally unethical as well.

You really don’t know the laws very well do you?

You are referring to the city of Kenessaw, Georgia. It has a law that requires a gun in each home. It, however, has a provision to exempt those homeowners who do not want a gun or have a religious belief to not allow them. So what you are stating, in your misunderstanding of the that law, is simple nonsense.

On the other hand, there are cities where it is illegal to own a gun or carry a knife. For someone who is not physically able to defend himself (perhaps stricken with arthritis, confined to a wheelchair, etc), is that city not actually in violation of moral law that allows self-defense?

 

[goofyjim]

What I choose to do now is leave a one sided debate where all else is shut down.

 

[melensdad]

What I choose to do now is leave a one sided debate where all else is shut down.

OK you say that, but what you actually choose is to not accept factual information or even to try to understand the concepts spelled out by the Vatican regarding self defense as an obligation.