Gun Control & the Catholic Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter melensdad
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
The Sword is a metaphor for the Word of God (Hebrews 4:12). Jesus was preparing them for a fight, but not necessarily in a physical sense.
Click to expand...
So a walking stick is a walking stick and a purse is a purse but a sword is the Word of God? That’s not very clear coming from the “great teacher”. And we are to sell our coat to buy the Word of God? That doesn’t make any sense either.
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
“That is enough” is not a warrant for their use, but a dismissal of the subject. It is the same intention that God had in his discussion with Moses; “That’s enough! Don’t mention this again!” (Deuteronony 3:26).
Click to expand...
Scripture also has it that while Jesus taught in parables & metaphors, He ALWAYS explained everything to the Apostles. Yet no explanation is offered in this passage.

So, either scripture is wrong about Jesus always explaining things to the twelve or no explanation was needed in this case because the Apostles understood correctly and a sword really meant a sword.
 
Sir_Knight said:
So a walking stick is a walking stick and a purse is a purse but a sword is the Word of God? That’s not very clear coming from the “great teacher”. And we are to sell our coat to buy the Word of God? That doesn’t make any sense either.

Scripture also has it that while Jesus taught in parables & metaphors, He ALWAYS explained everything to the Apostles. Yet no explanation is offered in this passage.

So, either scripture is wrong about Jesus always explaining things to the twelve or no explanation was needed in this case because the Apostles understood correctly and a sword really meant a sword.
Click to expand...
The Apostles spoke the same language as Jesus. They lived in the same world He lived in. They had the same experiences and background He did. He selected them to follow Him. He taught them Himself. He sent the Holy Spirit to them.

But they didn’t understand him.

On the other hand, some smart guy living 2,000 years later knows what Christ really meant.:rotfl:
 
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
The Sword is a metaphor for the Word of God (Hebrews 4:12). Jesus was preparing them for a fight, but not necessarily in a physical sense.
Click to expand...
Charlie, after you posted this I went back to read my New American Bible version *(the one we use for scripture readings here in the USA during mass) *and looked at the entire context of the chapter. I do not believe your interpretation of the passage I mentioned is correct. I believe that Jesus was instructing the Apostles to get a sword, and I believe he really intended them to have a physical sword.

Yes, he was preparing them for a fight, the sub-title reads "Instructions for the Time of Crisis" and there is no clear meaning to what a crisis is. It may be a physical crisis, it may be a spiritual crisis. It may be both.

In fact it appears it was both because Luke 22:49 it reads “Lord shall we strike with a sword” when they are confronted by Judas and a crowd. Clearly they were asking if they should use a real sword. In fact one of them struck the high priest’s servant and cut off his right ear. So there was a physical confrontation. There was obviously also a spiritual/theological confrontation as Jesus was arrested because he allowed himself to be arrested so that prophesy could be fulfilled.

Then in Luke 22:52 Jesus asked “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs?” This seems to indicate a clear statement that weapons of the time were used for defense against criminals.
 
Sir_Knight said:
So a walking stick is a walking stick and a purse is a purse but a sword is the Word of God? …
Click to expand...
Psalms 149:6-7 - Let them shout aloud as they praise God, with their sharp swords in their hands to defeat the nations and to punish the peoples.

I hated this verse. 😦 It sounded to “jihad”, if you know what I mean. That’s why I started to research the sword, and found that it is a metaphor for the Word of God, because “it cuts all the way through, to where soul and spirit meet” (Hebrews 4:12).
vern_humphrey said:
… On the other hand, some smart guy living 2,000 years later knows what Christ really meant.:rotfl:
Click to expand...
Now now, vern; You’ve criticized me before for attacker the poster and not the argument. You’re doing the same. :tsktsk:

It’s not just one smart guy; There’s lots of us! I’ll give you some URL links at the bottom of this post if your interested…
melensdad said:
Charlie, after you posted this I went back to read my New American Bible version …
Click to expand...
I’m glad you took up the challenge.
In fact it appears it was both because Luke 22:49 it reads “Lord shall we strike with a sword” when they are confronted by Judas and a crowd. Clearly they were asking if they should use a real sword. In fact one of them struck the high priest’s servant and cut off his right ear. So there was a physical confrontation. There was obviously also a spiritual/theological confrontation as Jesus was arrested because he allowed himself to be arrested so that prophesy could be fulfilled…
Click to expand...
Jesus rebuked the use of the bladed weapon so that prophesy could be fulfilled? I think vern used this argument too on a different thread. It didn’t convince me then, and it doesn’t convince me now. I think Jesus rejected returning evil for evil, which is consistent with His own message in his ministry.

Anyway, I don’t have the skills or expertise to defend this anymore. I can only give you the following links who are better at this than me…

porn-free.org/armor_wrapup.htm
professingprofessor.blogspot.com/2006/03/sword-talk.html
ccel.org/j/johnson_bw/pnt/PNT03-22.HTM

P.S. I’ll just stand by my argument that the Catholic stance for guns is not about scripture, but rather as a practical way to fight evil, if there is no other practical way.
 
Charlie, sorry but I don’t buy any of your arguments. **Sometimes a sword is just a sword. **It it too clearly written in the passage for it to be anything else.

BTW, I tend to agree with the “PS” your wrote of your stance that the Catholic view is not in the Scripture, but is practical. There are certainly scriptural references, and the one I cited in Luke is one of those, but overall I think it is the CCC that more clearly defines our rights to defense, and I think that various societies tend to define what is needed for that defense. Here in the US, guns are clearly the correct answer for defense. I will not argue they are necessary in some other nation, nor will I back down on my stance for the need for them here in the US.
 
melensdad said:
I don’t understand why so many Catholics seem to be in favor of gun control. More specifically, the Bishops and Clergy of the church seem to favor it. Is there a specific teaching or specific position about gun control that I don’t know about?

I’m a cradle Catholic, I’ve been working with my 12 year old who is in Catholic school going over basic Catholic teachings, she is in Catechism bowl at her school, she wants to learn how to shoot, neither she nor I can’t find anything about a position on gun control, but still I see/hear anti-gun talk from church leaders. Many of my friends are Jews, seems to me that, with the exception of some prominent American-Jewish politicians, Jews support gun ownership.

Can someone explain this to me?
Click to expand...
Guns have this nasty tendency of killing people. For Catholics killing people=bad.

Guns are synonomous with violence (yes even hunting is violent). Violence=bad.
 
FightingFat said:
Guns have this nasty tendency of killing people. For Catholics killing people=bad.
Click to expand...
No, murdering people = bad. If one is required to kill someone in self defense, that is NOT sinful per OFFICIAL Church teaching.
FightingFat said:
Guns are synonomous with violence (yes even hunting is violent). Violence=bad.
Click to expand...
I guess it depends on how one was raised. Guns are also synonomous with self defense and per Church teaching, self defense is not only a right but a DUTY that is expected of us as Catholics.
 
Sir_Knight said:
No, murdering people = bad. If one is required to kill someone in self defense, that is NOT sinful per OFFICIAL Church teaching.

I guess it depends on how one was raised. Guns are also synonomous with self defense and per Church teaching, self defense is not only a right but a DUTY that is expected of us as Catholics.
Click to expand...
OK Sir Knight :rolleyes:
 
FightingFat said:
By minimal force.
Click to expand...
That is not correct according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but the way I read it, nor should you use overwhelming force. However, appropriate force can easily include the use of firearms. For example an elderly person who is attacked physically by a stronger/younger assailant can use a gun legitimately. A father defending his family from some thugs who break into their home intent on murder can use a gun. An able bodied man, attacked by a 10 year old girl wielding a balloon made out of a sword should not use a gun to defend himself.
FightingFat said:
Guns have this nasty tendency of killing people. For Catholics killing people=bad.
Click to expand...
I thought criminals were bad? I thought people were given “free will” to choose God or deny him. When were powers bestowed upon objects?
FightingFat said:
Guns are synonomous with violence (yes even hunting is violent). Violence=bad.
Click to expand...
I understand that guns can be used for criminal intent. I also understand that many other common thing can be used for criminal intent. In fact I believe cars are used as get-away vehicles the majority of home break ins and also in the majority of bank robberies. . . never see people calling to ban cars.

This does not look violent to me . . . in fact it has been a great family experience to bring us closer together. She has no desire to hunt, for that matter I don’t hunt either, nor does my wife.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
Psalms 149:6-7 - Let them shout aloud as they praise God, with their sharp swords in their hands to defeat the nations and to punish the peoples.

I hated this verse. 😦 It sounded to “jihad”, if you know what I mean. That’s why I started to research the sword, and found that it is a metaphor for the Word of God, because “it cuts all the way through, to where soul and spirit meet” (Hebrews 4:12).
Click to expand...
So, when Jesus told Peter to put the sword away, He was really telling Peter to put the Word of God away?

Sorry, but Jesus is listing physical items … purse, walking stick, SWORD. For ONE of those things to be a metaphor while the rest refer to actual physical items and then to not explain it to them when they were to carry on His message for Him, is not something that the “great teacher” would do.

If you’re giving me instructions which you want me to pass on to other and I misunderstand, would you not explain it to me?
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
Now now, vern; You’ve criticized me before for attacker the poster and not the argument. You’re doing the same. :tsktsk:

It’s not just one smart guy; There’s lots of us! I’ll give you some URL links at the bottom of this post if your interested…
Click to expand...
Vern makes a valid point. What a whole bunch of folks in your URL may think doesn’t change the fact that these men spent nearly every waking moment of their lives with Jesus for 3 years. It’s more likely that they got it right before anyone else.
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
Jesus rebuked the use of the bladed weapon so that prophesy could be fulfilled? I think vern used this argument too on a different thread. It didn’t convince me then, and it doesn’t convince me now.
Click to expand...
So Jesus instructed His followers to waste their money on a weapon that He did not intend to be used? That is unlikely especially given the fact of how strongly He supported the poot.
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
I think Jesus rejected returning evil for evil, which is consistent with His own message in his ministry.
Click to expand...
There is a difference between doing evil for evil (i.e., revenge) and protecting oneself. At least the teachings of the Catholic Church say so.
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
Anyway, I don’t have the skills or expertise to defend this anymore. I can only give you the following links who are better at this than me…
Click to expand...
I tried posting a reply on one of those site pointing out the error in his logic but the site wouldn’t let me unless I registered first and I don’t need another account to keep track of.
 
FightingFat said:
Guns are synonomous with violence (yes even hunting is violent). Violence=bad.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your insight, as suspected, it is some twisted logic being used. Would mean that all processed meat is bad, since the end would also have to be considered violent for the domesticated stock. That logic would also suggest that activities like golf were bad (all that hitting of that poor little ball, you know) if uses of guns like target practice and skeet shooting were also considered synonymous with violence.
 
Sir_Knight said:
Are you saying that church teaching is wrong?
Click to expand...
No Sir Knight, I’m saying you are wrong and you are misleading people which is doubly wrong! Take your pic for example!

Is the Gabriel Possenti the patron Saint of handgunners? Or is that what some people would like? I know a gun lobbyist was pushing the vatican for his recognition cnsnews.com/ViewNation.as…20020228a.html Has he actually been recognised as the patron saint of gun users??? The article I’ve linked to there states that in 2002
Snyder has not received any response from the Vatican.
Click to expand...
I couldn’t find a single article that said anything other than that some pro-gun people in America wanted this designation, nothing about it having been assigned.

Also- Possentini didn’t shoot a load of gangsters as I have heard here plenty of times: -
According to accounts, Possenti confronted some renegade soldiers who were about to rape a village woman. At that moment, a lizard darted by, and Possenti shot it dead in a display of marksmanship that impressed the bad guys so much they fled.
Click to expand...
Source

Seems like he understood his faith very well!

Also from the same article:
Snyder, who heads the Arlington, Virginia-based St. Gabriel Possenti Society, Inc., might not have a quick answer to his prayers. …The Vatican press office on Monday said it has noted in the past that naming a patron for gun lobbyists isn’t opportune.
Click to expand...
Also nothing about him being the patron Saint of handgunners in the Catholic Encyclopedia the medal you have a picture of is, in fact, something handed out by a lobbyist. You have been wandering around this forum making out that this excellent Saint, reknowned for sanctity and miracles is the patron of something he is in fact not the patron of at all!! How misleading!!
 
Sir_Knight said:
At what age did she get started? Does she shoot any handguns? If so, which one/ones? I was thinking about a Ruger Single-Action in .22 for my little one when she eventually starts shooting.
Click to expand...
Good grief! :doh2: There really is no hope!
 
Also- with regard to the Patron Saint of handgunners (not): -

It is the express wish of Leo XIII and Pius X that he should be regarded as the chief patron of the youth of today, and especially as the patron of young religious, both novices and professed, in all that concerns their interior lives.

newadvent.org/cathen/06330c.htm
 
FightingFat said:
Good grief! :doh2:
Click to expand...
Explain your reaction here please, I’m not getting what’s wrong with target practice aside from your circular argument that all used of guns are violent because guns are violent because guns are sometimes used in violence (while still politely disagreeing with your logic that effectively claims that meat consumption is an endorsement of violence).
 
I am now going to hide for the duration of you all telling me I’m mad and twisted and throwing other vitriol in my direction. I hope some of you might think about what I have said here in the spirit of the God of love!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top