Gun Control

[Ender]

Correlation does not LOGICALLY IMPLY Causation. End of STORY.

Not exactly. The author of the quote didn’t say the studies only found correlations between CCWs and crime rates; that is an unwarranted interpretation. What he said was that there were 26 refereed studies undertaken to study the effects of CCWs on crime rates

I take it you probably missed that part of the text which you studied how to interpret statistical data and experiments just like with other documents.

It is true that I have had no statistical training but it isn’t my statistical abilities that are relevant but those of the people doing the studies.

Did you consider the cases where CCW exists but there is NO change in crime?

Uh, yeah … that would be the 10 studies which found that CCWs had no effect on crime rates. Didn’t you read the quote?

Anyway, unless you can show a CAUSAL link between the two, that evidence is USELESS.

It is not up to me to show a causal link; that’s what the studies attempted to show. If you think they failed to do that then pick a study and critique it. Just remember that they appeared in refereed journals so challenging their competence is probably not an adequate approach.

God Bless

If you meant this I suspect you wouldn’t precede it with a string of insults.

Ender

 

[Tigg]

I ask your forgiveness. My question about compassion and those who advocate use of guns for defense was an unjustifiable judgment. Before asking this question of others , I must first ask myself. I so often come up short in compassion that would lead others to Jesus Christ.

As I reflect on how I have approached this and other topics on the Forum, the desire to win has too often been my goal. That is not the way to peace. If I am the winner, someone else is the loser. Ultimately, if I am the loser too often, without the grace of God, I will look for ways to strike out, even violently. This despite my intention to be a man of non-violence.

I would hope the aim in this forum on gun control is not to win, but to find ways of reconciling differences. Compendium of Catholic Social Doctrine #492 * “Peace is then reconciliation with one’s brothers and sisters, for in the prayer that Jesus taught us, the “Our Father,” the forgiveness that we ask of God is linked to the forgiveness that we grant to our brothers and sisters: “Forgive us our debtors as we also have forgiven our debtors”.*

Thank you for your post. This has always been a bitter argument and we each need to give the other freedom to express their view without drawing unmerited collective conclusions as to the disposition of another’s heart if he chooses to own a gun. This debate is similar to the one on illegal immigration; those of us who fight against it are usually accused by their fellow Catholics of not loving the poor. (Talk about a real wide stretch!)

Altho it would be a grand world for us all to be able to lay down our guns and swords, I believe there is a certain naivete in those who expect that if the righteous do it, those with evil inclinations will follow suit. It’s not that we don’t want to convert them by showing them goodwill and love, but rather a realization that those who choose a life of crime and violence have already rejected the Ultimate Good (don’t misunderstand me - conversion is always possible through grace) but someone holding another hostage, intent on rape or worse, in the heat of their passion, is not rational and would be highly unlikely to listen to words of persuasion. They use intimidation, fear and brutality as weapons too. God forbid that anyone would have to use a gun, and yet, reason would conclude sometimes that’s the only way to preserve innocent life. And the Church has spoken and agreed.

I do like your quote on peace and forgiveness - that is the model we strive for. But the Wisdom Book of Ecclesiastes also comes to my mind. There is a time for everything - to paraphrase as it pertains to this thread…a time to defend and fight FOR life, and a time to lay down the gun.

 

[tommcguire]

I appreciate the responses to my last post. I detect a spirit in those responses that can help us gain greater understanding of one another and move us closer to the peace that Jesus gives: “…a peace the world cannot give.”

Here is a passage that we all can reflect one no matter what our position in regards to gun control. It is a statement from the Compendium that is about peace and war. But the statement is general enough that it can apply to the individual as well.

#490. * Violence is never a proper response. With the conviction of her faith in Christ and with the awareness of her mission, the Church proclaims "that violence is evil, that violence is unacceptable as a solution to problems, that violence is unworthy of man. Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings.

The contemporary world too needs the witness of unarmed prophets, who are often the objects of ridicule. Those who renounce violence and bloodshed and, in order to safeguard human rights, make use of those means of defense available to the weakest, bear witness to evangelical charity, provided they do so without harming the rights and obligations of other men and societies. They bear legitimate witness to the gravity of the physical and moral risk of recourse to violence, with all its destruction and death.*

I look forward to your response.

Ps. In summer, I stay in an RV in a rural area of Michigan. We kill hundreds of deer every year in deer vehicle accidents. I support the use of guns to help prevent this grave danger to the life of human beings. The deer also provide much needed food for poor families living in agricultural areas that are no longer providing adequate income for raising families.

 

[hxcCatholic413]

G
We all know that crimes using guns are a major problem, especially in the cities like Detroit.

what’s that supposed to mean?

 

[centurionguard]

Originally Posted by **tom mcguire **
I ask your forgiveness. My question about compassion and those who advocate use of guns for defense was an unjustifiable judgment. Before asking this question of others , I must first ask myself. I so often come up short in compassion that would lead others to Jesus Christ.

As I reflect on how I have approached this and other topics on the Forum, the desire to win has too often been my goal. That is not the way to peace. If I am the winner, someone else is the loser. Ultimately, if I am the loser too often, without the grace of God, I will look for ways to strike out, even violently. This despite my intention to be a man of non-violence.

I would hope the aim in this forum on gun control is not to win, but to find ways of reconciling differences. Compendium of Catholic Social Doctrine #492 “Peace is then reconciliation with one’s brothers and sisters, for in the prayer that Jesus taught us, the “Our Father,” the forgiveness that we ask of God is linked to the forgiveness that we grant to our brothers and sisters: “Forgive us our debtors as we also have forgiven our debtors”.

Thank you for your post. This has always been a bitter argument and we each need to give the other freedom to express their view without drawing unmerited collective conclusions as to the disposition of another’s heart if he chooses to own a gun. This debate is similar to the one on illegal immigration; those of us who fight against it are usually accused by their fellow Catholics of not loving the poor. (Talk about a real wide stretch!)

Altho it would be a grand world for us all to be able to lay down our guns and swords, I believe there is a certain naivete in those who expect that if the righteous do it, those with evil inclinations will follow suit. It’s not that we don’t want to convert them by showing them goodwill and love, but rather a realization that those who choose a life of crime and violence have already rejected the Ultimate Good (don’t misunderstand me - conversion is always possible through grace) but someone holding another hostage, intent on rape or worse, in the heat of their passion, is not rational and would be highly unlikely to listen to words of persuasion. They use intimidation, fear and brutality as weapons too. God forbid that anyone would have to use a gun, and yet, reason would conclude sometimes that’s the only way to preserve innocent life. And the Church has spoken and agreed.

I do like your quote on peace and forgiveness - that is the model we strive for. But the Wisdom Book of Ecclesiastes also comes to my mind. There is a time for everything - to paraphrase as it pertains to this thread…a time to defend and fight FOR life, and a time to lay down the gun.

But the Wisdom Book of Ecclesiastes also comes to my mind. There is a time for everything - to paraphrase as it pertains to this thread…a time to defend and fight FOR life, and a time to lay down the gun.

Thank You for saying this. This is such are charged over-heated thread.

I would have hoped emphasis placed Gun Control would see hard lined defensive advocates seeking strong resolutions to create an noticeable aire of Peace initiatives instead of placing this strong overture of ownership entitlement of possessing weapons used for personal security. I guess it boils down to vulnerability and fears and not trusting government policing agencies to adequately protect our own families and not trusting your fellowman or neighbor.

It would seem that many in society have this mental psychosis whereby the pressing need to own a Gun for whatever reason supersedes that of providing food and shelter for our families. I don’t think I’m exaggerating this point here.

Peace
Chris

 

[Ender]

It would seem that many in society have this mental psychosis…

Can you seriously believe that your judgment of people about whom you know nothing at all constitutes a rational argument? Claiming that “People who want guns are either evil or psychotic” may be emotionally satisfying but it is a position that is neither a morally nor logically acceptable. If you have a reasoned argument, make it. Pop psychoanalysis is just silly.

Ender

 

[centurionguard]

Can you seriously believe that your judgment of people about whom you know nothing at all constitutes a rational argument? Claiming that “People who want guns are either evil or psychotic” may be emotionally satisfying but it is a position that is neither a morally nor logically acceptable. If you have a reasoned argument, make it. Pop psychoanalysis is just silly.

Ender

Well Ender; don’t over react and take it so personal friend. I wasn’t naming you or anybody else specifically.

I said SOME who own guns are without question psychotic.

Seems to me there are many criminals who use guns to create an aire of anarchy and panic doing their rampant crimes and the taking of an innocent life would fit the title of being psychotic.

Just so that you know I own an old M1906 30 odd 6 semi automatic rife and Browning 12 gauge shotgun.

But by the same token I Hate Guns & Rifles. And I certainly don’t let them possess any of my life having to give a second thought about them.

I own these rifles strictly because the were passed on to me by family.
Rest assured their tucked away safely out of reach.

Peace
Chris

 

[tommcguire]

In response to the comment about a gun tucked safely away. I remember a hand gun, passed on to my family, that was safely tucked away. When I was about 10 years old, I found it, took it to the basement and fired it at the basement wall. Not a safe thing to do I assure you,but I never got caught. My parents continued to think the gun was safely tucked away.

Chicago, there is a heated debate going on over gun control. Mayor Daley wants greater restriction, others don’t.

Listening to the commentaries and arguments this past week in Chicago, I thought about how impossible it is for any law to control guns. When a person crosses from state to state, city to city, no one checks for guns. A legal gun in one state may be illegal in another. Illinois is one of two states that does not allow one to carry a concealed weapon. I can imagine many carry concealed weapons in the City of Chicago.

The issue for me is how do you keep illegal guns off the streets? In Chicago where so many young men and women kill each other with guns, there is a need for restrictions, which will never be perfect, but might help cut down on the violence.

I know we cannot and will not get rid of guns, but there must be some way to keep guns out of the hands of some people. What do you think?

 

[centurionguard]

In response to the comment about a gun tucked safely away. I remember a hand gun, passed on to my family, that was safely tucked away. When I was about 10 years old, I found it, took it to the basement and fired it at the basement wall. Not a safe thing to do I assure you,but I never got caught. My parents continued to think the gun was safely tucked away.

Chicago, there is a heated debate going on over gun control. Mayor Daley wants greater restriction, others don’t.

Listening to the commentaries and arguments this past week in Chicago, I thought about how impossible it is for any law to control guns. When a person crosses from state to state, city to city, no one checks for guns. A legal gun in one state may be illegal in another. Illinois is one of two states that does not allow one to carry a concealed weapon. I can imagine many carry concealed weapons in the City of Chicago.

The issue for me is how do you keep illegal guns off the streets? In Chicago where so many young men and women kill each other with guns, there is a need for restrictions, which will never be perfect, but might help cut down on the violence.

I know we cannot and will not get rid of guns, but there must be some way to keep guns out of the hands of some people. What do you think?

**The issue for me is how do you keep illegal guns off the streets?
**

I once watched a good American produced documentary on Gun Use in the U.S.

The History Channel documentary also included Crime statistics perpetrated with the use of firearms.

In conclusion the commentator said; that (“IF”) and let me reiterate strongly the word (“If”) the United States Congress enacted a strict Gun Law with a Presidential Veto backing to remove all unwanted firearms off the streets of America, it would take at least 125 years. to do so. Some estimates project there is are as many illegal guns or more on the streets of America as there are legal firearms.

I personally found those projections surprising. Yet their are others in the world who would find it of no surprise at all.

 

[Ender]

I said SOME who own guns are without question psychotic.

If you have a proposal to prevent the psychotic from owning guns while still permitting the sane to own them, go ahead and make it. But don’t make the arguments that (a) the Church opposes private ownership, or (b) the fact that some people abuse their rights makes it permissible to eliminate those rights for everyone.

I own an old M1906 30 odd 6

It’s really a “thirty-ought-six”, as in .30-06 caliber, the same as the 7.62 mm NATO round.

Ender

 

[centurionguard]

If you have a proposal to prevent the psychotic from owning guns while still permitting the sane to own them, go ahead and make it. But don’t make the arguments that (a) the Church opposes private ownership, or (b) the fact that some people abuse their rights makes it permissible to eliminate those rights for everyone.
It’s really a “thirty-ought-six”, as in .30-06 caliber, the same as the 7.62 mm NATO round.

Ender

If you have a proposal to prevent the psychotic from owning guns while still permitting the sane to own them, go ahead and make it.

I have no proposal that would eradicate psychotic criminals from committing the crimes they do nor how to stop them from owning firearms. It would seem apparent any logical proposal the average joe could make would be ignored at any rate.

Even proposals made politically from a federal level would be seen as laughable at best in this day and age. In a number of ways even a federally required legal Gun Registry seems to me as an irony considering how many illegal firearms are on the streets.

Gun Control is ultimately a political issue for bureaucrats and those who vote for them.

 

[momor]

If you have a proposal to prevent the psychotic from owning guns while still permitting the sane to own them, go ahead and make it. But don’t make the arguments that (a) the Church opposes private ownership, or (b) the fact that some people abuse their rights makes it permissible to eliminate those rights for everyone.

Ender

There is not a lot we can do to get the guns out of the hands of the criminals who already have them but we could prevent them from getting ammunition, IF we got serious about legal controls.

 

[Ender]

There is not a lot we can do to get the guns out of the hands of the criminals who already have them but we could prevent them from getting ammunition, IF we got serious about legal controls.

You can no more prevent criminals from getting their hands on ammunition than you can prevent them from obtaining guns. Your approach is the use of “legal controls”, which controls legal access but has minimal effect on illegal access. Given that the law abiding are affected by legal controls and the lawless are not (much), how does this eliminate the problem of criminal access without first destroying legal access?

Ender

 

[tommcguire]

I heard recently of an estimate that there are 250 million guns in the hands of citizens in the United States.

We seem to agree that guns will not be done away with. Gun control is something that some of us are willing to work for, others will work against.

But as a Catholic,entering into the season of Lent, I am looking for ways in my own life to reduce the level of violence? Every time I insist on my way, as if I had the only answer, someone else is likely to be hurt. The first reading today talked about the tree of knowledge. We learn from the story that the attempt to gain all knowledge failed. No human being has all the answers. On the question of gun control I do not have THE answer. But I know that reflecting on the Gospels I can find a way to live the good news, live out the that good news as part of the faith community so that others will say “see how they love one another.” What are your thoughts?

 

[Ender]

I heard recently of an estimate that there are 250 million guns in the hands of citizens in the United States.

We seem to agree that guns will not be done away with. Gun control is something that some of us are willing to work for, others will work against.

But as a Catholic,entering into the season of Lent, I am looking for ways in my own life to reduce the level of violence? Every time I insist on my way, as if I had the only answer, someone else is likely to be hurt. The first reading today talked about the tree of knowledge. We learn from the story that the attempt to gain all knowledge failed. No human being has all the answers. On the question of gun control I do not have THE answer. But I know that reflecting on the Gospels I can find a way to live the good news, live out the that good news as part of the faith community so that others will say “see how they love one another.” What are your thoughts?

I think if you believe that gun control would solve many of the problems with violence we experience today you should work to impose gun controls.

I would only add that, although the subject is more serious, our disagreement over this issue is no more a moral concern than a disagreement over the best approach to invest in the stock market. You do what you think is best and I’ll do the same. We disagree on how to achieve similar goals; we don’t disagree on the goal.

Ender

 

[lellow]

The only ones who suffer from gun control is the law abiding citizens. The criminal will always get guns no matter how much control there is. The criminal will always get illegal guns no matter how much gun control there is. See the law abiding citizen will often do what the law says but the criminal will not. To me gun control means limiting the guns for the law abiding citizen but the criminal will always have free reign. Why because they don’t care about the law. I don’t think a criminal will say “Oh we can’t have that kind of gun because its against the law.” or “I can’t have a gun because I’m a criminal.” They could care less about the laws on controlling guns.

Very well put! The world is safer when the law abiding citizens can protect themselves. Criminals will always have guns and we are only as safe as we can defend ourselves.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Very well put! The world is safer when the law abiding citizens can protect themselves. Criminals will always have guns and we are only as safe as we can defend ourselves.

Welcome to CA and good first post.

 

[gamewell45]

Well Ender; don’t over react and take it so personal friend. I wasn’t naming you or anybody else specifically.

I said SOME who own guns are without question psychotic.

Seems to me there are many criminals who use guns to create an aire of anarchy and panic doing their rampant crimes and the taking of an innocent life would fit the title of being psychotic.

Just so that you know I own an old M1906 30 odd 6 semi automatic rife and Browning 12 gauge shotgun.

But by the same token I Hate Guns & Rifles. And I certainly don’t let them possess any of my life having to give a second thought about them.

I own these rifles strictly because the were passed on to me by family.
Rest assured their tucked away safely out of reach.

Peace
Chris

I’m not big on weapons either; they are extremely dangerous even when in the hands of law abiding citizens. Even law enforcement individuals who are trained in the use and care of them mistakenly kill others by mistake.

stamfordadvocate.com/news/article/New-York-cop-shot-dead-by-another-officer-1121714.php

 

[tommcguire]

So we are not talking about a moral issue, but can we continue to explore implications of guns for disciples of Jesus Christ. We, as disciples are called to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and proclaim good news that will reduce violence.

What the world needs is God’s love; it needs to encounter Christ and to believe in him. The Eucharist is thus the source and summit not only of the Church’s life, but also of her mission: “an authentically eucharistic Church is a missionary Church.” (234) We too must be able to tell our brothers and sisters with conviction: “That which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us” (1Jn 1,3). Pope Benedict XVI

Have we, as Catholics, experienced the Love of Jesus Christ? If we have experienced this love, can we proclaim it with conviction and. at the same time, put trust in guns as a means of self defense?

 

[Ender]

So we are not talking about a moral issue, but can we continue to explore implications of guns for disciples of Jesus Christ. …

Have we, as Catholics, experienced the Love of Jesus Christ? If we have experienced this love, can we proclaim it with conviction and. at the same time, put trust in guns as a means of self defense?

If you are correct in assuming that a good Christian should have no need to take precautions to protect himself from evil you should be able to show where the Church says, or even implies, this.

For example, contrary to your suggestion, we know the Church allows a person to kill if necessary to protect himself and others. Given that one may resist an attack with deadly force it doesn’t seem like a stretch to assume that one may also resist evil by taking measures to improve ones chances of surviving an attack. How can it be justifiable to defend oneself but immoral to prepare oneself to do so?

Ender