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Peepers
Guest
So, let’s say someone is in your home and coming at you or a loved one with a knife. You have a gun, and you are proficient with it. Where do you shoot the assailant?
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tommcguire
Guest
I am never required by any moral theory or revelation to use a gun.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
When discussing gun control it is not only the intended use that is relevant but also the unintended use (kids getting a hold of your gun, or your own accidental use). Now some may argue that in the case of accident, there is no moral guilt involved. But what if the risk of that accident is so high that one could easily argue that you should have known better? That is called negligence, and it does become a moral matter. Much of the justification for gun control lies in the area of preventing accidents due to negligence. If the risk of such an accident is high enough, we have a moral obligation to do so. Sure, it is always emotionally stirring to talk about how you can use your gun to shoot some depraved individual who is simultaneously trying to slit the throats of your children while raping your wife. And I suppose such opportunities for self defense can arise. But for every criminal that is stopped by a gun there are numerous innocents that die from accidental use or domestic disputes that got out of hand because a gun was available. So is it worth it to sacrifice those innocents just so that we can increase the odds of stopping a criminal? I don’t know the answer. But this is the kind of deliberations that should be a part of the discussion, rather than seeing what outlandish scenarios we can imagine where we would want a gun.
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Calgar
Guest
Something I bet you know nothing about (if you do, I apologize).
I’ve been “to war” several times. It’s the weapons that make peaceful resolution possible. Whether they get used or not.
There is a time for war and fighting. We, as Christians, shouldn’t go out murdering and pillaging, but we aren’t going to allow it to happen to us either.
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Calgar
Guest
Center of mass, with as many bullets as you can fit in that gun.
If you think you can “shoot to wound” you don’t have any experience with shooting a gun or people. In the stress of a violent confrontation your ability to aim is severely affected.
Besides, are you going to take a chance that the aggressor is going to harm your loved one?
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chain
Guest
Your goal is to stop the threat. Hopefully that would simply be accomplished by removing the assailant’s initiative. When he has a knife and you are defenseless - he probably believes he is in control. That feeling of control would probably disappear if he saw a gun pointed at him.
While I think the above is the most common outcome - the assailant retreating. If that is not the case - then you have about a 1,000 decisions to make in the next fraction of a second. With the level of adrenalin in your bloodstream - it is hard to determine which of those would be foremost in your mind. That said, case studies have pretty much proven that the most common outcome is missing (statistics I am thinking of involve police - people routinely trained to deal with situations - and still under pressure they find this a most difficult situation).
Anyway, it is easy to say to aim for a specific target - but honestly statistics just don’t show it well.
As for nowhere in the Bible doe is say you have to use a gun, I will agree. Still I think we are bound to protect our families. I don’t want to live with making a bet that they will just leave us alone if we co-operate.IIRC
About 10 years ago I had friends of a friend put in that situation. My friend was in town for a short time and to meet up with as many of his friends as possible - we planned a night at a noted BBQ joint. It was a very quite evening - not nearly as festive as we had planned. His climbing friends were very quite (which is odd for climbers - they are usually an outgong group). Found out 4 of them were on a double date the night before and had gotten attacked. The 2 girls got away, but the 2 boys did not. They had not been found yet.
They found the car the next day underwater in the lake - the boys were in the truck. So much for letting them go since they co-operated. The assailants were found - and tried. The parents of the 2 dead boys ask the jury not to consider the death penalty.
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Peepers
Guest
I am a former Marine. One tour of duty to Afghanistan and two to Iraq. Why did you assume that I know nothing about war?
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Peepers
Guest
That is actually the point I was getting to. If you follow the thread, you will see that I have said that one should not pick up the weapon without understanding that the point is to kill with it. I took some exception to the argument that all one is doing is “stopping” someone, with no intent to kill - that the killing was merely a “side effect”.Center of mass, with as many bullets as you can fit in that gun.
If you think you can “shoot to wound” you don’t have any experience with shooting a gun or people. In the stress of a violent confrontation your ability to aim is severely affected.
Besides, are you going to take a chance that the aggressor is going to harm your loved one?
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Peepers
Guest
… although, I was more of the “one round = one kill” type of warrior. My wartime experiences are what lead me to the path I am on now, which is learning how to preserve life and cure illness and physical suffering. I thank God every day that I no longer pick up a weapon to do my job.Center of mass, with as many bullets as you can fit in that gun.
If you think you can “shoot to wound” you don’t have any experience with shooting a gun or people. In the stress of a violent confrontation your ability to aim is severely affected.
Besides, are you going to take a chance that the aggressor is going to harm your loved one?
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Calgar
Guest
Then we share a lot of the same experiences.
Why did I assume? I most often hear the things you say coming from people who don’t have the same experiences, and don’t truly understand what they believe and why they believe it.
I’ll add to my previous apology by saying that I have a great deal of respect for someone who has walked the warrior’s path and then chosen another.
When you wrote "… and those who have been to war are often the most ardent advocates of the peaceful resolution of conflict. Jesus has something to say about that too. " you didn’t back it up. Where does Jesus say that? It’s a bit of a pet peeve of mine when people randomly “back up” their arguments with “Jesus said it” and don’t tell me where I can look to see if He actually did.
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Calgar
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Peepers
Guest
I was typing faster than I was thinking. I would have said, that the New Testament has something to say about that. My reading of the Old Testament is more about retribution and violence, and my reading of the New Testament is more about love and peace. The prophesy of Isiah 2:1-5 comes to mind.
I am no pacifist. I have considered signing up with the reserves once I complete my training. I expect to remain unmarried, so there are many possibilities for me to be of service, which being tied down to a family would not afford.
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Peepers
Guest
It was a standard to strive for. Not always achieved. One miss can mean a missed opportunity. But that is not very relevant to this thread, except to the question of whether you risk taking a wounding shot or a lethal one (or many) to stop an assailant. I would take the kill, even if I were confident of my aim for a nonlethal.Then you are a rare one.
I’m more of a “one magazine = one kill” type.
Is that morally wrong? I suspect that it is.
As for taking another path, I have great admiration for the med corps, and I also had an experience (more than one really, but one in particular) during which I wished I could save a life. Give me a few more years, and I will be doing that every day.
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The_Wizard
Guest
“But for every criminal that is stopped by a gun there are numerous innocents that die from accidental use or domestic disputes that got out of hand because a gun was available.”
LeafByNiggle, I would like to see your source for this statement.
“But this is the kind of deliberations that should be a part of the discussion, rather than seeing what outlandish scenarios we can imagine where we would want a gun.”
If you would open yourself to researching the facts you would find that more guns means less crime (Google John Lott).
I respect your choice not to own a firearm and even not to resist BUT do not make that choice for me.
LeafByNiggle, I would like to see your source for this statement.
“But this is the kind of deliberations that should be a part of the discussion, rather than seeing what outlandish scenarios we can imagine where we would want a gun.”
If you would open yourself to researching the facts you would find that more guns means less crime (Google John Lott).
I respect your choice not to own a firearm and even not to resist BUT do not make that choice for me.
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Calgar
Guest
Luke 22:36 is a good New Testement verse for this discussion.
As for the love and peace: You must be willing to defend what you love. And to have peace you have to be able to enforce it.
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Peepers
Guest
When I was a kid, our neighbor came home to find a man with a knife in her home. She managed to hit a panic button. The sheriff responded. The assailant fled… onto her roof. When law enforcement left the scene, the guy with the knife returned to threaten her again, only this time he was angry. My great aunt lived in an old formerly elegant neighborhood which had slid into urban decline. It was her home for many years, and she stayed put. In her 80’s, she answers the door. Two guys in coveralls are looking for a gas leak. She lets them in, and ends up tied up and sodomized in her basement. She manages to get rid of them by writing a check, and the clever guys are arrested when they try to cash it. I live in an urban neighborhood. I have caught a person in my yard prowling about. My garage has been burglarized multiple times. I was sitting at a counter at a Denny’s restaurant mid morning on a Sunday. The place was full of families after church, etc… A gunman came in and held the place up. I know that two windows have been pried open in the past on my old house, because the marks from the pry tool are in the wood.
Don’t tell me how outlandish these scenarios are. They have happened to me or to people that I know. I live in a middle class urban neighborhood in a prosperous city in California, not in an economically depressed hood at all.
I would not use a gun to protect property. At least that is what I think. If someone were about to light fire to my home, I might change my mind. But I would not hesitate to defend my life or family for even a blink of an eye.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
I didn’t think such an obvious statement needed a study to back it up. Just consider what you see in the news. Count up the number of accidental shootings and domestic dispute shootings that you see reported in a year. And then think how many reports you saw of someone using their gun to stop a criminal in their home.
I do not doubt that at all. But that does not change the fact that there may be a large price being paid in innocent blood in order to achieve that reduction in crime.
it is just your unsubstantiated opinion that I do not own a firearm. And I am not making any choices for you or anyone else. But since you seem to disagree with my admonition to at least consider the human cost of having lots of guns around, apparently you do not think the issue is even worth considering.
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starshiptrooper
Guest
Actually, I would be extremely interested in seeing the study you have to back it up. In the meantime, why don’t you take a look at the NRA’s stats? According to them, gun accidents in the US have fallen to a new low despite the fact that the number of privately owned guns rises by 4.5 million a year. They are well researched and have relied on US government stats to come to their conclusion. Check it out here!
nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=120&issue=009
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The_Wizard
Guest
LeafByNigle,
It is NOT “an obvious statement”. Not everything your read in the newspapers, hear on the radio, see on TV or read on the Internet can be taken as gospel (sorry about that). And there is always a bias attached to those reports. And in some cases, things are not even reported because they do not fit the agenda of the reporting agency. If you have not done it already you may want to check this out johnlott.org/ .
Everything comes with a cost. I am not of that school that believes “If it save just one life we should do it!”. If I were, I would be also looking at doing away with private ownership of cars. Just this past ski season in Colorado a young person (innocent blood) died in a skiing accident. Should we close down the ski resorts?
Well, do you own a firearm? And it is your “unsubstantiated opinion” that I have not “consider the human cost of having lots of guns around”. Yes, I have done a cost/opportunity study with regards to my owning firearms. And based on the facts, as I see them AND personnel experience I have concluded that I can manage/control the risks and optimize the benefits (man, I did learn something in those engineering management classes). And in this world you can only manage/control the risks, You can never eliminate them.
It is NOT “an obvious statement”. Not everything your read in the newspapers, hear on the radio, see on TV or read on the Internet can be taken as gospel (sorry about that). And there is always a bias attached to those reports. And in some cases, things are not even reported because they do not fit the agenda of the reporting agency. If you have not done it already you may want to check this out johnlott.org/ .
Everything comes with a cost. I am not of that school that believes “If it save just one life we should do it!”. If I were, I would be also looking at doing away with private ownership of cars. Just this past ski season in Colorado a young person (innocent blood) died in a skiing accident. Should we close down the ski resorts?
Well, do you own a firearm? And it is your “unsubstantiated opinion” that I have not “consider the human cost of having lots of guns around”. Yes, I have done a cost/opportunity study with regards to my owning firearms. And based on the facts, as I see them AND personnel experience I have concluded that I can manage/control the risks and optimize the benefits (man, I did learn something in those engineering management classes). And in this world you can only manage/control the risks, You can never eliminate them.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
I also mentioned domestic disputes. Do you have figures to show that that is down as well?
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