Gun Control

[hxcCatholic413]

let me solve this dilemma:

Guns are meant to kill and harm others; therefore they should be banned. Well problem solved (brushes off shoulder).

BTW: to Sir Knight I’d prefer a Bow and Arrow

 

[hxcCatholic413]

I will not talk about morality again. In the end these arguments will not move us to peace.

I do not approach the issue of gun control from a theoretical position. I believe that the community I live in would be much safer, moving to peaceful, if there were more, not less, regulation and restriction of guns. Here are some of the controls I support

I believe there is no need for anyone to privately own military assault rifles. Such rifles are owned by a few of my neighbors. I hear them being fired freely on holidays, especially the Fourth of July and New Years.

I believe everyone who owns a gun should have a license, and should have a very strict background check, be trained in the safe use and storage of a guns. Way too many children in my community have been killed because the gun’s owner did not safely store the gun.

I believe there is a need to regulate the purchase of ammunition. Gun owners should not be allowed to purchase unlimited amounts of ammunition. The holiday shooting sprees dumps a lot of bullets into the roofs of homes in my neighborhood.

Having said all that, I choose not to own or carry a gun. I have been held up at gun point. Had I had a gun, either the person who held me up or I would have been dead or wounded. I am thankful everyday I did not kill that young man and he did not kill me. I believe my non- violent response to him was a good choice.

I made the deliberate choice to live with my family (We moved here when my children were young.) in a community where there is a lot of violence. I believe my living here gives witness to a non-violent way of life. It requires risk, risk of losing my life or the life of my family. The choice to live here is a good choice.

I do not have fear. I do not trust in any form of weapon to protect me. I trust in the grace of God that the way I have chosen to live follows the call of Jesus to be His disciple.

God Bless You!

 

[Sir_Knight]

let me solve this dilemma:

Guns are meant to kill and harm others; therefore they should be banned. Well problem solved (brushes off shoulder).

You may have solved one problem but created an even bigger one.

What is to stop someone who is bigger and stronger than you from forcing you to do his bidding? The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 120-pound policewoman on equal footing with a 300-pound criminal, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger. Without a gun to level the playing field, force and the fear of force enters the equation and there is nothing separating us from uncivilized animals where the young and the strong dominate the weak and the old.

Is that the kind of society that you want to live in where somebody younger / bigger / stronger can FORCE you to do their bidding?

 

[hxcCatholic413]

You may have solved one problem but created an even bigger one.

What is to stop someone who is bigger and stronger than you from forcing you to do his bidding? The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 120-pound policewoman on equal footing with a 300-pound criminal, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger. Without a gun to level the playing field, force and the fear of force enters the equation and there is nothing separating us from uncivilized animals where the young and the strong dominate the weak and the old.

Is that the kind of society that you want to live in where somebody younger / bigger / stronger can FORCE you to do their bidding?

Since when are children of God animals? Greatest weapon: is our mind, the ability to communicate with others…“hey I have a gun…i’m going to kill you” whose the uncivilized animal now? Guns create misery…and there is no justification for senseless misery to another person. Instead of harming another being with a gun…it’s time to be humbled and bow down to nature. God Bless!

 

[momor]

The only ones who suffer from gun control is the law abiding citizens. The criminal will always get guns no matter how much control there is. The criminal will always get illegal guns no matter how much gun control there is. See the law abiding citizen will often do what the law says but the criminal will not. To me gun control means limiting the guns for the law abiding citizen but the criminal will always have free reign. Why because they don’t care about the law. I don’t think a criminal will say “Oh we can’t have that kind of gun because its against the law.” or “I can’t have a gun because I’m a criminal.” They could care less about the laws on controlling guns.

If you take your position to it’s logical conclusion there would be no purpose in having any laws at all since some people will always behave themselves and others never will.

‘Gun control’ is too vague - it has to be defined. Good gun control laws would create barriers (and punishment) for those who shouldn’t be allowed to have guns without creating barriers for those who should be allowed.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I will not talk about morality again. In the end these arguments will not move us to peace.

I do not approach the issue of gun control from a theoretical position. I believe that the community I live in would be much safer, moving to peaceful, if there were more, not less, regulation and restriction of guns. Here are some of the controls I support

I believe there is no need for anyone to privately own military assault rifles. Such rifles are owned by a few of my neighbors. I hear them being fired freely on holidays, especially the Fourth of July and New Years.

I believe everyone who owns a gun should have a license, and should have a very strict background check, be trained in the safe use and storage of a guns. Way too many children in my community have been killed because the gun’s owner did not safely store the gun.

I believe there is a need to regulate the purchase of ammunition. Gun owners should not be allowed to purchase unlimited amounts of ammunition. The holiday shooting sprees dumps a lot of bullets into the roofs of homes in my neighborhood.

Having said all that, I choose not to own or carry a gun. I have been held up at gun point. Had I had a gun, either the person who held me up or I would have been dead or wounded. I am thankful everyday I did not kill that young man and he did not kill me. I believe my non- violent response to him was a good choice.

So he could continue doing evil in the world? And exactly how did you fulfill your Catholic duty to oppose evil?

I made the deliberate choice to live with my family (We moved here when my children were young.) in a community where there is a lot of violence. I believe my living here gives witness to a non-violent way of life. It requires risk, risk of losing my life or the life of my family. The choice to live here is a good choice.

I do not have fear. I do not trust in any form of weapon to protect me. I trust in the grace of God that the way I have chosen to live follows the call of Jesus to be His disciple.

And Jesus commanded His disciples to go out and purchase swords if they did not have any – even if they had to sell their cloaks in order to do so. The “sword” (Greek: maxairan) is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler’s equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals. Pretty much the equivalent of what a gun is today. As “a disciple of Christ”, why do you feel that you can disobey this teaching? Where in Luke 22:36-38 are you given the option to disregard this instruction?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Since when are children of God animals?

Since Cain killed Abel.

Greatest weapon: is our mind, the ability to communicate with others…“hey I have a gun…i’m going to kill you” whose the uncivilized animal now? Guns create misery…and there is no justification for senseless misery to another person. Instead of harming another being with a gun…it’s time to be humbled and bow down to nature. God Bless!

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force or fear of force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it. In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

Proof of this can be seen by comparing NYC, which has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation with Vermont which has almost no gun laws. Violent crime is significantly higher in NYC because the strong are able to prey upon the weak. In Vermont, access to a gun places all on equal footing.

 

[momor]

And Jesus commanded His disciples to go out and purchase swords if they did not have any – even if they had to sell their cloaks in order to do so. The “sword” (Greek: maxairan) is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler’s equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals. Pretty much the equivalent of what a gun is today. As “a disciple of Christ”, why do you feel that you can disobey this teaching? Where in Luke 22:36-38 are you given the option to disregard this instruction?

We have modern day police forces. Society has long determined that it is better to have a police force than to leave it up to each individual to have to defend themselves.

 

[ddarko]

And Jesus commanded His disciples to go out and purchase swords if they did not have any – even if they had to sell their cloaks in order to do so. The “sword” (Greek: maxairan) is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler’s equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals. Pretty much the equivalent of what a gun is today. As “a disciple of Christ”, why do you feel that you can disobey this teaching? Where in Luke 22:36-38 are you given the option to disregard this instruction?

What poor theological exegesis. This passage is NEVER interpreted this way. In fact, to interpret the passage this way, contradicts rest of Tradition and Scripture in multiple places. Sir Knight, you either interpret Scripture in compliance with Tradition and rest of Scripture or you can come up with some unique ideas as you have done.

I know how passionate about owning your guns. BUT, its another thing to misinterpret scripture to support your own goal.

Now I am not going to give you the correct interpretation either. Just find out for yourself. This forum itself contains answers to that very specific quote. So a Catholic who opposes guns has no problem with that line of Scripture.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

Since Cain killed Abel.

Very poor biblical exegesis. Because Cain killed Abel, it doesn’t make humans animals. After Christ’s death, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and sons and daughters of God.

Proof of this can be seen by comparing NYC, which has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation with Vermont which has almost no gun laws. Violent crime is significantly higher in NYC because the strong are able to prey upon the weak. In Vermont, access to a gun places all on equal footing.

Very bad use of logic. There can be many other reasons why NYC has a higher crime rate. Population density could be a major one.

NYC = 27,532/sq mi

Vermont = 65.8/sq mi

So your point actually proves nothing regarding the connection between gun control and criminal activity of the two cities.

God Bless

 

[Sir_Knight]

We have modern day police forces. Society has long determined that it is better to have a police force than to leave it up to each individual to have to defend themselves.

Is that’s why last year over 800,000 calls to 911 took over a hour for police to respond. Is that’s why the CCC says that we have a GRAVE duty to protect ourselves and others from harm. A grave duty is to be performed with the BEST means possible; otherwise it can not be considered to be “grave”. And the BEST means of personal self defense in most cases is with a handgun.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Very poor biblical exegesis. Because Cain killed Abel, it doesn’t make humans animals. After Christ’s death, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and sons and daughters of God.

Very bad use of logic. There can be many other reasons why NYC has a higher crime rate. Population density could be a major one.

NYC = 27,532/sq mi

Vermont = 65.8/sq mi

So your point is actually proves nothing regarding the connection between gun control and criminal activity of the two cities.

God Bless

Then explain why in EVERY single community where concealed carry laws were passed, violent crime went DOWN. There is not a single instance where violent crime went up when people were given access to firearms.

 

[Sir_Knight]

What poor theological exegesis. This passage is NEVER interpreted this way. In fact, to interpret the passage this way, contradicts rest of Tradition and Scripture in multiple places. Sir Knight, you either interpret Scripture in compliance with Tradition and rest of Scripture or you can come up with some unique ideas as you have done.

I know how passionate about owning your guns. BUT, its another thing to misinterpret scripture to support your own goal.

Now I am not going to give you the correct interpretation either. Just find out for yourself. This forum itself contains answers to that very specific quote. So a Catholic who opposes guns has no problem with that line of Scripture.

God Bless

I got newsflash for you – many interpret this passage in exactly the way that I outlined. The fact that the Vatican’s own website says that we have a right and a duty to defense with arms seems to further support this position.

 

[momor]

Is that’s why last year over 800,000 calls to 911 took over a hour for police to respond. Is that’s why the CCC says that we have a GRAVE duty to protect ourselves and others from harm. A grave duty is to be performed with the BEST means possible; otherwise it can not be considered to be “grave”. And the BEST means of personal self defense in most cases is with a handgun.

I don’t even know which part of the CCC you are referring to but I do know there is nothing in there that says implicitly or expicitly that I should arm myself and even less so that I have a moral duty to do so.

I have a basic trust in God’s Providence that keeps me from being so fearful.of harm that I have to think about having a gun to protect myself as I go about my daily life. I use common sense to avoid unnecessary danger and beyond that I don’t worry about what could happen.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Read this thread from the beginning. Specific links to the Vatican’s website are provided.

 

[gamewell45]

You may have solved one problem but created an even bigger one.

What is to stop someone who is bigger and stronger than you from forcing you to do his bidding? The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 120-pound policewoman on equal footing with a 300-pound criminal, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger. Without a gun to level the playing field, force and the fear of force enters the equation and there is nothing separating us from uncivilized animals where the young and the strong dominate the weak and the old.

Is that the kind of society that you want to live in where somebody younger / bigger / stronger can FORCE you to do their bidding?

I’ve heard this tiresome argument time and time again. The world is filled with a million “what if’s”.

The answer is, arm yourself with a cellphone and call the police; they have the training, equipment and skills (even if its a 120lb female officer) to deal with this type of situation. We don’t need civilians running around playing John Wayne and getting innocent bystanders injured or killed.

 

[hxcCatholic413]

Since Cain killed Abel.

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force or fear of force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it. In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

Proof of this can be seen by comparing NYC, which has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation with Vermont which has almost no gun laws. Violent crime is significantly higher in NYC because the strong are able to prey upon the weak. In Vermont, access to a gun places all on equal footing.

Seriously? (what I bolded) Vermont has a population of less than 1 Million, NYC has about 10 Million. Not a reasonably analogy. Both areas are completely different environments as well. If one wants to become an animal its best to act like one…this is pretty much your first paragraph summed up.

Jesus taught love, turn the other cheek…etc there’s a thin line between self-defense and cold-blooded murder…same as threatening an individual. Who decides which is which?

Convince via an argument AND Convince via example

 

[hxcCatholic413]

Is that’s why last year over 800,000 calls to 911 took over a hour for police to respond. Is that’s why the CCC says that we have a GRAVE duty to protect ourselves and others from harm. A grave duty is to be performed with the BEST means possible; otherwise it can not be considered to be “grave”. And the BEST means of personal self defense in most cases is with a handgun.

umm not sure about this info…do you have a link? Sir Knight there’s no reason to stoop down to a lower level…best means of personal self defense is the mind and the ability to communicate. Do you really think that you will intimidate someone with a gun just because you have one? Try that in downtown Newark and see where it gets you. God Bless!

 

[hxcCatholic413]

Then explain why in EVERY single community where concealed carry laws were passed, violent crime went DOWN. There is not a single instance where violent crime went up when people were given access to firearms.

lol probably because there was no violent crime there in the first place…I have a hunch that these communities are various small towns with little population

 

[centurionguard]

If you take your position to it’s logical conclusion there would be no purpose in having any laws at all since some people will always behave themselves and others never will.

‘Gun control’ is too vague - it has to be defined. Good gun control laws would create barriers (and punishment) for those who shouldn’t be allowed to have guns without creating barriers for those who should be allowed.

’Gun control’ is too vague

No Argument in this statement!

Good gun control laws would create barriers (and punishment) for those who shouldn’t be allowed to have guns without creating barriers for those who should be allowed

When is it possible to have Good Gun Controls in a country no different than mine where defined morals are so diverse. Stricter Gun Laws are bound to make citizens who have opposing ideas about what freedom and liberty means to them.

To some owning a Gun gives them psychological Power
To others owning a Gun means defending their Freedom (“IF”) it entails living in Peace.
And yet with others owning a Gun means they can uncharitably Lord it over others.

The power and responsibility of owning a Gun means so many things to people who wish to possess them for whatever reason. Personally; I sometimes can’t help but see the acquisition of owning a Gun so extremely important in peoples lives that in someways the overwhelming desire of having a Gun for whatever legitimate or illegitimate reason leaves the materialistic Gun in itself in someways becoming a God unto itself.

Think about the psychological power driven behind possessing a Gun for whatever reason.
One can deny this all they want with lip service for and against. Its man’s primitive nature to defend himself from the forces of nature. In striving to seek peaceful coexistence amongst mankind itself, man realizes the greatest enemy is not in the forces of nature but that He becomes the greatest enemy unto himself. We live in a very Savage world despite mankind’s abilities in science and technology. Yet man does not know how to live peacefully with himself. Is there a real solution to Gun Control?

So long as mankind continues to reject God there can never be Gun Control.