Gun Control

[hxcCatholic413]

And you obviously having been watching too many movies. When one shoots, one aims for the center mass. Not the legs, or the arms or the head because there is a greater chance that one may miss and go on to shoot an innocent by-stander.

PS: I noticed that you didn’t answer the question asked …* if it was you being attacked by this guy with the hammer? Or, your newly wedded bride? Or, your sister, or daughter or mother? Would you have preferred for someone to dial ‘911’ and wait a few minutes for the police to arrive as your face was pounded with a hammer? Or, would you have performed the man with the gun to have acted in the way that he did?*

If I was attacked? I would pray a Hail Mary and an Our Father for myself…and for the attacker = true love. Forgive him father for he knows not what he is doing.

If he was attacking someone else? Since I don’t own a gun I would try to immobilize him without deadly force. Since I know some Jiu Jitsu I could perform this without killing him.

I don’t know about you, but for me whenever I commit a mortal sin I feel very guilty, sick, and depressed. Even if self-defense is justified I probably would enter a mental institution if I knew that I took one’s life. Yes the CCC says we have the right to use self-defense this doesn’t mean that we have to do this. Just like the CCC says death penalty is allowed in some rare circumstances, I just don’t see why a loving person would even be for this in the first place. God Bless!

 

[hxcCatholic413]

This is the part the gun control advocates just don’t get, bbarrick! They simply can’t understand why anyone would want to own a gun, or how the Church herself does not condemn it. After all, guns are EVIL and kill people! Or, if that argument doesn’t work, we are condemned because we don’t “love our brothers and sisters” and are separating ourselves from them by virtue of the fact that we own a gun!

:hypno:

your wrong guns are the entire issue…there’s no weapon on the face of the earth as powerful as a gun THAT anyone can possess. I pull a trigger and aim at someone 50 feet away = they have no way to react before their shot. Power corrupts the mind…this whole topic is evident of this.

 

[ddarko]

I believe the CCC trumps REASON as you put it. If a person has a permit to carry that means they can own and carry a firearm for legal reasons. The CCC says it is our duty to protect ourselves and others. The “REASON” I find here is not to go where you KNOW you will place yourself in danger if at all possible. “REASON” also lets you know that you can not control everyplace you must go.

REASON is not undermined by the Catechism. I would once again like to ask these Gun supporters to READ the Bible and Catechism in its ENTIRETY. Not just pick and choose.

The Catechism itself has this to say about reason.

154 Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason.

About guns, the Catechism speaks the following:

2315 The accumulation of arms strikes many as a paradoxically suitable way of deterring potential adversaries from war. They see it as the most effective means of ensuring peace among nations.** This method of deterrence gives rise to strong moral reservations. The arms race does not ensure peace. **Far from eliminating the causes of war, it risks aggravating them. Spending enormous sums to produce ever new types of weapons impedes efforts to aid needy populations;111 it thwarts the development of peoples. Over-armament multiplies reasons for conflict and increases the danger of escalation.

2316 The production and the sale of arms affect the common good of nations and of the international community. Hence public authorities have the right and duty to regulate them. The short-term pursuit of private or collective interests **cannot **legitimate undertakings that promote violence and conflict among nations and compromise the international juridical order.

So this contradicts your position and position of most gun lovers here. Now don’t give me counterexamples to this counterexample. I already explained why it makes zero logical sense to do so. The proper thing to do is to change your position such that it accommodates the above. As it stands now, there is something definitely wrong.

God Bless

 

[hxcCatholic413]

When right to carry was first signed into law by Governor G.W. Bush [was voted in during Gov Ann Richards time but she was a gun control wacko so she would not sign it into law]

Under the new a law a man was shot and killed in Dallas by a CHL holder—the Lame Stream Press (LSM) went nuts “Gov Bush was wrong to sign this into law”! Former Gov Richards said, “That’s the reason I wouldn’t sign it into law I knew it would be the wild, wild west in Texas.” Dallas Police Chief, “I knew innocent people were going to be murdered with this new law you cannot have armed citizens out on the streets this law needs to be repealed.”

What the LSM failed to report:
It happened during a traffic accident what was not reported when the CHL holder said he was going to call the police just to report the accident for insurance purposes; he was in his vehicle in the middle lane and could not escape. The other person who caused the fender bender did not have a driver’s license and started to severely beat the CHL holder who was sitting in his vehicle the CHL holder grabbed his gun fired shooting the person the person walked back to his vehicle sat down beside it and died.

The Grand Jury did not indict the CHL holder stating, “This is exactly why we have this new law for an incident like this.”

Less than a month ago a punk kid tried to run me off the road in the city I grabbed my revolver still kept it concealed to see what this fool was going to do. Did I feel my life was in danger—YES! Would I have used deadly force to stop the threat—YES! Not to kill but to stop the threat.

Luckily this punk drove away at a fast speed was I mad—yes did I follow him—no that would have been stupid on my part. What this punk didn’t know I have a flip video camcorder mounted on my dash I had everything he did on video.

If this can happen to me—it can happen to you.

What is ironic (and yes pro-choice people have spotted this out against the pro-life movement) is that we pro-life people are so wrapped up in the issue of killing a baby that when we start to argue that it is okay to “stop a threat” (such as this) we fail to realize that these individuals were once in the womb. Pretty much what your saying is that babies in the womb are so precious, but once they turn older their “worthless” unless of course they “follow everything that is right and moral”.

 

[ddarko]

I never accused you of pacifism and you’re always quoting the “Straw-Man” thing!

Well I’m a real man ok and you can live in your fantasy world, you can go down the street and kiss those gang-bangers on the cheek, you trust them, you kiss them.

I and my family are not going to be victims because a bunch of people running around saying peace and love, praise the Lord, and living with blinders on and trying to take away my God given right to defend myself and family.

I thank God there are more common sense people in our country than those people with blinders on.

Matthew 6:30 - Now if that is how God clothes the wild flowers growing in the field which are there today and thrown into the furnace tomorrow, will he not much more look after you, you who have so little faith?

Matthew 26:52 - Then Jesus said to him, ‘Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword’.

Romans 12:14 - Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.

Romans 12: 16-19 - Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly; do not claim to be wiser than you are. Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’

St. Teresa of Avila - “Let nothing trouble you. Let nothing frighten you. Everything passes. God never changes. Patience obtains all. Whoever has God, wants for nothing. God alone is enough.”

God Bless

 

[hxcCatholic413]

I
I and my family are not going to be victims because a bunch of people running around saying peace and love, praise the Lord, and living with blinders on and trying to take away my God given right to defend myself and family.

I thank God there are more common sense people in our country than those people with blinders on.

well looks like abortion won’t end anytime soon with that view…what exactly does pro-life mean?

 

[ddarko]

PS: I noticed that you didn’t answer the question asked …* if it was you being attacked by this guy with the hammer? Or, your newly wedded bride? Or, your sister, or daughter or mother? Would you have preferred for someone to dial ‘911’ and wait a few minutes for the police to arrive as your face was pounded with a hammer? Or, would you have performed the man with the gun to have acted in the way that he did?*

Once again, not to get in to a conversation but this was sooo tempting that I just had to answer

Your hypothetical situation is a classic case for emotional appeal. Basically an appeal to the side which usually is willing to abandon reason But under REASON, the appeal just collapses. Here is why:-

If I am being attacked by a guy with a hammer, it can’t take more than two or three people to take him down and restrain him. So yes, call 911 and help me restrain this guy. Not pump three bullets to his chest. What a waste of a life. The man could have been restrained, taken to counseling and would probably have gotten back together with his wife and be happily married if not for the idiot with the gun.

Let me ask you a similar question. That guy with the hammer, he could have owned a GUN and used to carrying it concealed. He comes in with it instead of the hammer. Before anyone could do anything, he would have shot at least one person fatally (probably his wife). Worse even more and maybe even the “Hero” with a gun. Would have been a bloody mess.

So as far as I can see, having a gun doesn’t solve anything. BUT, making sure that the hammer guy didn’t have a gun, DOES stop a bloody mess.

In future, try to use your imagination while you come up with these scenarios to double check if THE GUN was the only solution will ya? Would save all that valuable time spent answering a meaningless example and emotional question

God Bless

 

[bbarrick8383]

I’d rather die in a state of Grace .

Well that makes two of us. However I’d much rather take a life in self defense considering I’m the sole provider for a 2 month old a 3 year old and a 10 year old. I would gladly take another life in their defense.

 

[ddarko]

Well that makes two of us. However I’d much rather take a life in self defense considering I’m the sole provider for a 2 month old a 3 year old and a 10 year old. I would gladly take another life in their defense.

To act in self defense against an aggressor and to carry a gun are two different things.

Carrying a gun presupposes that someone is going to attack you. These '‘someone’'s are your brothers and sisters in Christ. Regardless of whether they are Christian, Atheists or convicted Rapists. That is Christian teaching.

It’s one thing to defend when the need arises and another to always be ready for a show down. If you really feel that you are called to defend others, BE A POLICEMAN or POLICE-WOMAN. Join the Army or something like that.

Just as SEX is too dangerous for a loving couple to share outside of marriage and requires proper oaths and commitments, SO DOES CARRYING A GUN.

God Bless

 

[bbarrick8383]

Matthew 6:30 -

Matthew 26:52 - Then Jesus said to him, ‘Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by sword.

God Bless

You conveniently ignore the scripture where Jesus told them to sell their cloaks and buy sword.

I’m probably taking that out of context though. I’m sure Jesus had peaceful intentions considering he knew what was coming. Probably meant for them to use as utility tools rather than defense.

Isn’t security at the Vatican armed?

 

[ddarko]

You conveniently ignore the scripture where Jesus told them to sell their cloaks and buy sword.

Actually I don’t

I’ve been telling Sir Knight this all along. The above passages I provided were meant to highlight that taking Jesus’s words about buying a sword are indeed taken out of context. In fact, Jesus was not in favor of carrying a weapon for fear of life.

I’m probably taking that out of context though. I’m sure Jesus had peaceful intentions considering he knew what was coming. Probably meant for them to use as utility tools rather than defense.

Actually the accepted Theological view (and the only one that can be reconciled with Tradition) is that Jesus actually meant to get ready spiritually. Because the Devil was about to let loose spiritual tests and turmoil among his followers as Jesus was taken in to be tortured. Even the Disciples misunderstood. That is why when Peter said ‘we got two swords’, Jesus went ‘ENOUGH!!’. So sort of like saying, ‘You idiots, what have you learnt all this time?’

Isn’t security at the Vatican armed?

Yes, they do. And that is certainly fine.

Its like I said in the previous post to you. To carry a gun is allowed for authority.

It’s like sex basically. Married people do it. It is morally good. Even Sacramental. Does that mean everyone who is in love can do it? NO. It requires proper oaths and commitments because it is indeed very dangerous.

Also, as I said to some others here, opposite of possessing a gun by civilians is not to say NO GUNS for authority and support pacifism. That would actually be un-Christian.

God Bless

 

[momor]

**

As a Catholic I have a GRAVE DUTY to defend myself and anyone that is in danger from a life threatening situation. **

Innocent life:
I. RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE
The witness of sacred history
2259 In the account of Abel’s murder by his brother Cain,57 Scripture reveals the presence of anger and envy in man, consequences of original sin, from the beginning of human history. Man has become the enemy of his fellow man. God declares the wickedness of this fratricide: “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.”

2260 The covenant between God and mankind is interwoven with reminders of God’s gift of human life and man’s murderous violence:
For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning. . . . Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.

2319 Every human life, from the moment of conception until death, is sacred because the human person has been willed for its own sake in the image and likeness of the living and holy God.

2320 The murder of a human being is gravely contrary to the dignity of the person and the holiness of the Creator.

2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. **Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good. **

**You, and others, have taken these quotes out of context just as I suspected.
**
The paragraphs from the CCC (2319 - 2321) you are quoting come from the In Brief section. They relate back to the body of the section titled Legitimate Defense. The grave duty to defend others (that you have mistakenly taken for yourselves) is one the CCC gives to civil authority, not to individuals.

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

The next paragraph goes on to talk about the duties of the state.

We are allowed to defend ourselves and others against harm. There is nothing in the CCC that even hints at a grave duty to arm yourselves as private citizens.

 

[Tigg]

your wrong guns are the entire issue…there’s no weapon on the face of the earth as powerful as a gun THAT anyone can possess. I pull a trigger and aim at someone 50 feet away = they have no way to react before their shot. Power corrupts the mind…this whole topic is evident of this.

Guns are not the issue and as a gun owner I feel no great sense of power. It would be used only as a last resort. What is really sad is that the point is missed that sin is in the will. Guns have no intent - only the evil in the depths of the human heart kill…whether by gun, or assault; the means and/or weapon do not matter. Murderous rage can be just as effectively accomplished with ones fists.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Actually I don’t

I’ve been telling Sir Knight this all along. The above passages I provided were meant to highlight that taking Jesus’s words about buying a sword are indeed taken out of context. In fact, Jesus was not in favor of carrying a weapon for fear of life.

Actually the accepted Theological view (and the only one that can be reconciled with Tradition) is that Jesus actually meant to get ready spiritually. Because the Devil was about to let loose spiritual tests and turmoil among his followers as Jesus was taken in to be tortured. Even the Disciples misunderstood. That is why when Peter said ‘we got two swords’, Jesus went ‘ENOUGH!!’. So sort of like saying, ‘You idiots, what have you learnt all this time?’

Yes, they do. And that is certainly fine.

Its like I said in the previous post to you. To carry a gun is allowed for authority.

It’s like sex basically. Married people do it. It is morally good. Even Sacramental. Does that mean everyone who is in love can do it? NO. It requires proper oaths and commitments because it is indeed very dangerous.

Also, as I said to some others here, opposite of possessing a gun by civilians is not to say NO GUNS for authority and support pacifism. That would actually be un-Christian.

God Bless

Then advocate for CCL holders to take oaths and be deputized because it will be a cold day in you know where before you take our handguns.

 

[ddarko]

Then advocate for CCL holders to take oaths and be deputized because it will be a cold day in you know where before you take our handguns.

Unfortunately I am not talking about those kind of oaths, its not that easy

There are questions like,

Do you swear the oath to an authority (it can’t be just self proclaimed authority either)? (If you do, I understand you would no longer be considered a Civilian anyways. Your status must change just as a single person is no longer single after the oath of marriage).

Also, not every oath counts as permission either. Lets go back to the sex analogy. An engaged couple has given a certain promise and oath to each other. BUT, that is not enough to have sex. So it could be a similar situation here.

Basically, the Oath must be backed by authority. (I understand that this is getting a bit theological and I refer you to ‘Swear to God’ by Scott Hahn if you are interested in looking more in to this.)

But in short, yes, if the CCL holders join the police, or similar institution that has been given authority they are welcome to carry guns. Now they are authority. They are full time servants of the law protecting against evil. As I understand, none of the CCL actually wants to go there. They in fact think the police and authority are incompetent (and a main point of their line of argumentation), no?

God Bless

 

[bbarrick8383]

Unfortunately I am not talking about those kind of oaths, its not that easy

There are questions like,

Do you swear the oath to an authority (it can’t be just self proclaimed authority either)? (If you do, I understand you would no longer be considered a Civilian anyways. Your status must change just as a single person is no longer single after the oath of marriage).

Also, not every oath counts as permission either. Lets go back to the sex analogy. An engaged couple has given a certain promise and oath to each other. BUT, that is not enough to have sex. So it could be a similar situation here.

Basically, the Oath must be backed by authority. (I understand that this is getting a bit theological and I refer you to ‘Swear to God’ by Scott Hahn if you are interested in looking more in to this.)

But in short, yes, if the CCL holders join the police, or similar institution that has been given authority they are welcome to carry guns. Now they are authority. They are full time servants of the law protecting against evil. As I understand, none of the CCL actually wants to go there. They in fact think the police are incompetent, no?

God Bless

No we don’t think cops are incompetent. They are limited.

For instance, if I called the cops to my house they wouldn’t even show up. But if I waited about 20 minutes I could get a sheriff, and depending on the circumstances 20 to 45 minutes a highway patrol. And depending on the weather maybe neither.

Like I said before, cops may usually be called to a crime in progress, but if you know much about it, they usually arrive to the scene of the crime.

So see, many of us could not join the police, but we could be deputized to abide by the law and defend our fellow citizens similar to a volunteer firefighter. And if it wouldake you feel better, I’d even say “so help me God.” at the end if it.

 

[ddarko]

No we don’t think cops are incompetent. They are limited.

For instance, if I called the cops to my house they wouldn’t even show up. But if I waited about 20 minutes I could get a sheriff, and depending on the circumstances 20 to 45 minutes a highway patrol. And depending on the weather maybe neither.

Like I said before, cops may usually be called to a crime in progress, but if you know much about it, they usually arrive to the scene of the crime.

So see, many of us could not join the police, but we could be deputized to abide by the law and defend our fellow citizens similar to a volunteer firefighter. And if it wouldake you feel better, I’d even say “so help me God.” at the end if it.

Why can’t you join the force? If cops are limited, your joining will certainly help.

Like the thing is, if you can’t join the force, we have to end it at that point. Because authority is the only one who can carry guns right?

The other possibility is the State coming up with a designated position other than cops. Then again it would be valid for that designated person to have a gun. The key thing here is Authority. The Oath is simply a way of binding oneself to that authority.

Take the pope for an example. Lets say he is sick and can’t speak at the moment. Someone else can’t step in for him and declare a Dogma or teach infallibly on his behalf. The need might certainly be there but the limitation exists.

So yes, you can certainly be a deputy. But you have to join the police. You have to be under some authority as much as your oath has to be bound by an authority. In this case, the authority would be the state who God has given the authority too.

God Bless

 

[bbarrick8383]

Why can’t you join the force? If cops are limited, your joining will certainly help.

Like the thing is, if you can’t join the force, we have to end it at that point. Because authority is the only one who can carry guns right?

The other possibility is the State coming up with a designated position other than cops. Then again it would be valid for that designated person to have a gun.

Take the pope for an example. Lets say he is sick and can’t speak at the moment. Someone else can’t step in for him and declare a Dogma or teach infallibly on his behalf. The need might certainly be there but the limitation exists.

So yes, you can certainly be a deputy. But you have to join the police. You have to be under some authority as much as your oath has to be bound by an authority. In this case, the authority would be the state who God has given the authority too.

God Bless

Like many Americans I live several miles from the nearest city limit. My services are limited to the local volunteer fire departments and the county sherriff. Police won’t even bother. And to totally rely on the sherriff and his deputies would be suicide in large rural areas like mine.

So I’ll take it upon myself as authority given to me by my right to live over someones decision to take my life. I’m sure God will understand.

 

[ddarko]

Like many Americans I live several miles from the nearest city limit. My services are limited to the local volunteer fire departments and the county sherriff. Police won’t even bother. And to totally rely on the sherriff and his deputies would be suicide in large rural areas like mine.

So I’ll take it upon myself as authority given to me by my right to live over someones decision to take my life. I’m sure God will understand.

Actually now I think the discussion is a little different from our original.

Now the question is, you have no authority, but is there an essential need for you to own a gun?

I would say from a Christian perspective no. I would quote the passages I quoted to Stan up there about God’s providence and his protection. If we can’t carry a gun, we rely on God. We trust that he will provide.

So in that sense, I think doesn’t it make a case against keeping a gun?

Like I can understand your actions if it was absolutely vital to your survival (like you lived in an area where there is a war or some imminent known threat against your family). But otherwise, would it not be unreasonable?

You have to keep in mind, we can only make the exception when there is sufficient reason. Otherwise its a grave thing to take in to our hands the authority given by God to the state.

God Bless

 

[stanmaxkolbe]

I’d rather die in a state of Grace than to know that I killed someone (whether it was self-defense or not).!

Well you tell me man, am I going to hell? Or should I have just held up my Crucifix and told those enemy soldiers, “Praise Jesus” and let them kill my troops?