Gun Control

[Sir_Knight]

Ok, learn to first be honest. Maybe you stopped reading as soon as you saw something that supported your position. If you read the Vatican website properly, it also says the following:-

“Of particular significance are the mechanisms for prevention, reduction, accountability and control, such as the creation of systems of marking, tracing, and record-keeping; the defining of criteria for the export of arms or for determining when there is effectively a surplus; the regulation of brokering activity; the inclusion of mechanisms for collecting and destroying arms in peace processes; the establishment of adequate standards for the management and security of the stocks of these weapons.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/documents/rc_seg-st_doc_20010711_trade-arms_en.html

So first, I advice you to really, and I mean really, take a honest look at what is made available on the Vatican site. Alright?

Because you are misleading people theologically too (as seen from your previous post about Saul, violence and God) which can have deeper implications beyond gun control.

God Bless

And none of what you quoted negates their position on the right of private ownership of firearms and the duty to self defense with them.

 

[tommcguire]

As I read this thread, I think of Jesus and the Pharisees. The Pharisees were concerned with the law, Jesus tried and tried to get them to experience and live by the new law. Would it not be great if everyone on this thread were to take seriously the call to heal, set captives free, proclaim the mercy of God to all, including those who are considered enemies. “Do not be afraid.” I know some say they are not motivated by fear, but without a gun I wonder if they are really afraid?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

It is HIGHLY suggested that we refrain from personal attacks, and emotional posting.

 

[chain]

So much discussions, so many points.

Universities providing escorts. That has been around for a long time - I volunteered in the 80’s. I do not recall a singe time we actually escorted someone through that program. The program was great on paper, but a failure in practice. I escorted plenty of woman (who lived in my dorm) across campus - but they knew and trusted me, it was not through the university sponsored program.

---

A weapon is anything used to project (or protect against) force. Almost any object can be used to project force, so it is literally impossible to outlaw all weapons. At best we can make laws against specifically outrageous ones.

Guns are somewhat unique, they can project force at a distance. Crimes do not require projection of force at a distance (a knife can be used in a mugging just as effectively as a gun - a steel pipe is also just as effective, even a wood stick can work quite well). That said, w/o the ability to defend at a distance, you have a very high probability of being injured while defending yourself.

---

I don’t think self defense is necessarily a moral obligation for everybody. Perhaps it is a vanity to feel the need to defend yourself so that you can live to fulfill your responsibilities to others. At times the best example here is one of utter submission.

That said, I feel that I have a moral responsibility to protect my wife and children as well as the innocent. I believe it would be sinful to avoid that responsibility. I can avoid that responsibility through both action or inaction. If I fail to protect myself, I will be unable to fulfill my responsibility to protect them. The real question, however, am a culpable for failing to be prepared to protect myself or them.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Just so that people get the right Theology and not some second rate private ideas, Saul got condemned for NOT OBEYING God’s command.

Not because he refused to act violently.

Just so we get the Theology correct and not some second rate private ideas, failing to do violence to his enemy WAS God’s command to Saul showing that God is not the pacifist God that some believe and that pacifism was not / is no always pleasing to God.

As for God being unchanging, that was the old testament. In the NEW, everyone has become brothers and sisters in Christ and claimed in to the family of God, through the blood poured out on the cross.

So Scripture hasn’t changed. But humanities relationship with God has been changed by Christ

God Bless

Again, just so that readers are exposed to the correct theology and not some second rate private ideas, please provide scriptural supporting references that when the Bible says that God does not change from generation to generation, it was referring to only the Old Testament. After all, even Jesus, Himself, tells us in Matthew 5:17 that He did NOT come to change the old law.

 

[Sir_Knight]

True, but I think you understand what I mean. Even Joan of Arc, is celebrated for her martydom. She did not try to defend her self against the Church authorities that put her to death using any violence. She submitted, just like Christ.

So even though some are certainly warriors, they were always canonized for martydom. Not for valiant self-defense. And some of those who you listed above, changed their lives completely around to a life of spirituality.

God Bless

Being a martyr, means dying for the faith – not being killed by a two-bit robber for your cash and/or credit cards.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Ok I understand your position a bit better now.

But do you think Gun Control exclusively means that “a helpless victim is morally superior to someone who uses self defense”?

Because this once again assumes Guns are the only means of self-defense. Also, one can look at Gun control equaling the social attitude towards peace as a whole than towards violence. In this sense, it is trying to give the law enforcement an upper hand over a person who might also wield a gun during an attack.

So I don’t think the connection you made still follows. The reasons for Gun Control is not one reason and it is certainly not the idea that helpless Victims are morally superior to those who can defend.

But there is a certain element of truth in what you say in terms of Catholicism.

There are not any saints who died defending their own life and got raised to the sainthood for that. Absolutely NO ONE got considered a saint for such actions. But there are many who died praying for their persecutors and would be murderers like. St. Maria Goretti.

So yes, I think laying down ones lives, praying for ones persecutors is a Morally superior thing to do. We have to follow the examples given by Christ and his Apostles after all.

God Bless

We are also duty-bound to follow the official teachings of the Catholic Church as found in the CCC and when it tells us that we have a right and even a duty to self defense …

 

[Sir_Knight]

I think that we should have laws that make it very hard for a criminal to own a gun. I’m not saying it will prevent them from owning one, but why make it easy for them?

We do. Those who are convicted of a felony or even a violent misdemeanor are barred from EVER owning a gun.

If you don’t have a deep criminal history, then it is fine to own a gun I think.

Exactly.

 

[tommcguire]

Sister Dorthy Stang, an American Missionary in Brazil, was shot and killed because she stood up against the land owners who treated the people in the Amazon unjustly. She stood up to them using the Word of God, not a weapon. Her death brought convictions against some of the perpetrators of violence and some reforms that protect poor people. Had she used violence, that would have only brought more violence. Non violence is a way Jesus directed his disciples to act. “Blessed are the peacemakers.” One can make peace a lot easier with non violence than with violence. Peace does not come from violence but from acts of non violence.

I believe the Church justifies violence for defense because she knows many, if not most human beings, are not able to commit to non violence. Although I am committed to non violence, I am not sure that in every instance I would act in a non violent way. My choice not to own a gun helps me to avoid making the fatal mistake of acting in a lethal way against another human person. I have a long way to go before coming to practice what Jesus taught.

 

[ddarko]

We are also duty-bound to follow the official teachings of the Catholic Church as found in the CCC and when it tells us that we have a right and even a duty to self defense …

You need to learn how to read the Catechism first by putting personal bias aside. Ask yourself, did you start your gun sales and love for guns AFTER consulting the Catechism on what to do? Or did you just turn it up to see what you could get from it to support you?

The truth is there for all to see. Dissidents will always be dissidents. Some read the same catechism and think Contraception is ok. Others read the same catechism and thing Gay marriage is still ok. This is nothing new. People pick and choose what they want to read and IGNORE the rest.

Let us pray that these men would turn from their ways to the Lord and seek truth with sincerity. May the spirit enlighten, and strengthen their minds to resist ones urge to justify oneself. It is not easy as we can clearly see as been continuously demonstrated on this very thread.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

We do. Those who are convicted of a felony or even a violent misdemeanor are barred from EVER owning a gun.

You get barred from having a gun AFTER committing the crime. That is rather useless. What do you tell the people who got hurt by the criminal carrying a gun?

So as you can see, if your goal is to escape unhappiness and have a certitude regarding your safety, you are striving after a impossible feat. God has called you to accept his divine providence.

"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground unperceived by your Father" – Matthew 10:29

Even if you have a gun or don’t have a gun, you will die when the time comes. You won’t die one second before or after no matter who wants you dead. If its time for you to die, even if you had a Desert Eagle, you will die at the hands of an unarmed assailant. That is Providence.

This simple truth seems to elude every gun lover on this thread. Just as the rich man believes that by gathering riches, he is somehow made immortal, the gun lovers seem to think that gathering guns, make them immune to violence and suffering.

NO! It does not. Learn what God’s providence is. Your life will be much simpler.

God Bless

 

[tommcguire]

Yesterday in the Gospel read at Mass, Jesus says: “Love one another as I have loved you.” Now if one loves as Jesus loves how can one take the life of another? Such an act of violence would seem opposed to love as Jesus loves, no?

 

[Sir_Knight]

You get barred from having a gun AFTER committing the crime. That is rather useless. What do you tell the people who got hurt by the criminal carrying a gun?

So as you can see, if your goal is to escape unhappiness and have a certitude regarding your safety, you are striving after a impossible feat. God has called you to accept his divine providence.

"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground unperceived by your Father" – Matthew 10:29

Even if you have a gun or don’t have a gun, you will die when the time comes. You won’t die one second before or after no matter who wants you dead. If its time for you to die, even if you had a Desert Eagle, you will die at the hands of an unarmed assailant. That is Providence.

This simple truth seems to elude every gun lover on this thread. Just as the rich man believes that by gathering riches, he is somehow made immortal, the gun lovers seem to think that gathering guns, make them immune to violence and suffering.

NO! It does not. Learn what God’s providence is. Your life will be much simpler.

God Bless

You have an incorrect and dangerous understanding of God’s providence. Are you saying that if it is not my time to go, I can jump off a cliff and nothing will happen to me? Or, that I can explode a stick of dynamite right in front of me and I will not be killed? People, either on purpose or by accident, can place themselves into dangerous situations that can end their life. Other people can also place us into those dangerous situations. Do you drive a car without wearing a seatbelt because you trust yourself to God’s providence?

Do you not work and devote your life to prayer all day because you trust that God will provide you with food and shelter? After all, Matthew 6:25-27 tells us …

“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?”

… because if that is what you do, then I am sorry to tell you that you have an incorrect AND dangerous understanding of that passage. The Apostles severely chastised the people of their day (see 2 Thessalonians 3:10) who had that understanding of God’s providence saying that those who do not work, shall not eat.

We have a DUTY to provide for ourselves and our families. We have a duty to provide food, shelter, clothing AND protection. Protection from harm in whatever shape it may come. Those who fail to provide for themselves and their families are “worse than an unbeliever” according to 1 Timothy 5:8.

 

[Sir_Knight]

You need to learn how to read the Catechism first by putting personal bias aside. Ask yourself, did you start your gun sales and love for guns AFTER consulting the Catechism on what to do? Or did you just turn it up to see what you could get from it to support you?

The truth is there for all to see. Dissidents will always be dissidents. Some read the same catechism and think Contraception is ok. Others read the same catechism and thing Gay marriage is still ok. This is nothing new. People pick and choose what they want to read and IGNORE the rest.

Let us pray that these men would turn from their ways to the Lord and seek truth with sincerity. May the spirit enlighten, and strengthen their minds to resist ones urge to justify oneself. It is not easy as we can clearly see as been continuously demonstrated on this very thread.

God Bless

I started AFTER first consulting with my monsignor who has FORMAL training in the Catechism AND over four decades of experience in shepherding the flock assigned to him in matter of faith and morals. I trust that opinion. He specifically told me in the confessional, where the priest represents Jesus by acting in persona Christ, that even if a gun that I sell were to be used in a murder or crime, there would be no sin, guilt or wrong-doing on my part.

So you can believe what you want but unless you can cough up “credentials” that equal or surpass that of my monsignor in terms of FORMAL training and actual experience in faith and morals, I will consider your “opinions” to be an incorrect understanding of Church teachings in this matter. God Bless.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Yesterday in the Gospel read at Mass, Jesus says: “Love one another as I have loved you.” Now if one loves as Jesus loves how can one take the life of another? Such an act of violence would seem opposed to love as Jesus loves, no?

Again, are you saying that the Catholic Church is wrong in it’s OFFICIAL teaching in that we have a right and even a duty to self defense and that we commit no sin even if we kill during that action? Because if you are, then you are also saying that Christ made a mistake when He promised that His Church would not error when it came to teachings on faith and morals. And if Christ was mistaken about that promise, how can you trust any of His other promises? If one promise is wrong, so could another and there is no way to know which one or how many other promises might also be incorrect. Do you really want to start going down that path? Because if you do, then even the passage that you just quoted could be an incorrect teaching.

 

[Ender]

Again, are you saying that the Catholic Church is wrong in it’s OFFICIAL teaching in that we have a right and even a duty to self defense and that we commit no sin even if we kill during that action?

Whatever individuals here may believe about the rightness or wrongness of killing another person, there is simply no debate about what the Church teaches.

Q. 1276. Under what circumstances may human life be lawfully taken?
A. Human life may be lawfully taken:
*1. In self-defense, when we are unjustly attacked and have no other means of saving our own lives; *
*2. In a just war, when the safety or rights of the nation require it; *
3. By the lawful execution of a criminal, fairly tried and found guilty of a crime punishable by death when the preservation of law and order and the good of the community require such execution. (Baltimore Catechism)

Ender

 

[ddarko]

You have an incorrect and dangerous understanding of God’s providence. Are you saying that if it is not my time to go, I can jump off a cliff and nothing will happen to me? Or, that I can explode a stick of dynamite right in front of me and I will not be killed? People, either on purpose or by accident, can place themselves into dangerous situations that can end their life. Other people can also place us into those dangerous situations. Do you drive a car without wearing a seatbelt because you trust yourself to God’s providence?

You my friend have a weird understanding of “testing God”. In all the examples you gave, they are situations where you are putting yourself deliberately in harms way to test God’s providence. Do I need to remind you of what God said about people putting themselves DELIBERATELY in harms way to TEST God’s providence? Someone else who suggested what you did above was Satan.

Do you not work and devote your life to prayer all day because you trust that God will provide you with food and shelter? After all, Matthew 6:25-27 tells us …

“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?”

… because if that is what you do, then I am sorry to tell you that you have an incorrect AND dangerous understanding of that passage. The Apostles severely chastised the people of their day (see 2 Thessalonians 3:10) who had that understanding of God’s providence saying that those who do not work, shall not eat.

???

You are one confused man.

The above passage DOES NOT say DON’T WORK FOR YOUR FOOD. If that is what you read, you have issues. It merely states that do whatever you can do reasonably, the rest is up to God.

So as we can see from Jesus, he did not go around carrying weapons even though he knew he was going to be attacked. You might say, well its Jesus, he knew he had to die. Sure, but your argument fails because the early Christian community described in Acts of the Apostles didn’t carry weapons either, both priests and lay.

Therefore, we imitate their lives. Does it mean we are testing God? NO. If it was right for the first apostles and church men and women to do so, then it is also ok for us to do. Now what you are asking is “what if someone attacks you?” etc. The answer is, you trust in God’s providence. It is not a test because you are doing all God has asked you to do.

We have a DUTY to provide for ourselves and our families. We have a duty to provide food, shelter, clothing AND protection. Protection from harm in whatever shape it may come. Those who fail to provide for themselves and their families are “worse than an unbeliever” according to 1 Timothy 5:8.

Yes you do. What you seem to be rather naively thinking is that you having a gun provides some sort of security for your family. NO. Because the attacker just as well might have a gun using the same rights you speak about and would use it from a distance to kill your whole family even before you know it.

So having a gun does not help you keep your family safe. What helps is making society a better place. Helping the poor, reducing the margin between the poor and the rich, helping everyone secure the basic needs in life, providing a free and good education for all etc. You’ve gotten so obsessed with yourself that all you can think of is guns. Just like the rich man who could only think about his riches.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

Whatever individuals here may believe about the rightness or wrongness of killing another person, there is simply no debate about what the Church teaches.

Q. 1276. Under what circumstances may human life be lawfully taken?
A. Human life may be lawfully taken:
*1. In self-defense, when we are unjustly attacked and have no other means of saving our own lives; *
*2. In a just war, when the safety or rights of the nation require it; *
3. By the lawful execution of a criminal, fairly tried and found guilty of a crime punishable by death when the preservation of law and order and the good of the community require such execution. (Baltimore Catechism)

Ender

No one disagrees. NO ONE disagrees. Now stop being naive and equating this with permission for someone to own a gun.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

I started AFTER first consulting with my monsignor who has FORMAL training in the Catechism AND over four decades of experience in shepherding the flock assigned to him in matter of faith and morals. I trust that opinion. He specifically told me in the confessional, where the priest represents Jesus by acting in persona Christ, that even if a gun that I sell were to be used in a murder or crime, there would be no sin, guilt or wrong-doing on my part.

So you can believe what you want but unless you can cough up “credentials” that equal or surpass that of my monsignor in terms of FORMAL training and actual experience in faith and morals, I will consider your “opinions” to be an incorrect understanding of Church teachings in this matter. God Bless.

Sigh, my prayers go out to the Monsignor that has lead you astray.

(I don’t know if you’ve been paying attention to history, but even those high up as Bishops and Pope’s have done some nasty and immoral things. So the fact that you got private advice from your Monsignor really doesn’t mean much. Same goes for the confessional. In personal of Christ is only for forgiving sins. It does not mean the advice given is infallibly from Christ. Maybe it will help you to stop relying on others and start reading and learning about your own religion a bit)

God Bless

 

[Ender]

No one disagrees. NO ONE disagrees. Now stop being naive and equating this with permission for someone to own a gun.

It would help if you would read more carefully. My comment in this case had nothing whatever to do with guns. Do you have arguments that don’t include insults … whether they are relevant or not?

Ender